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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#162326: May 9th 2019 at 8:36:39 PM

Regardless of My Persoanl thoughts on things I'm fine with 2014!Thanos not going up and won't start a fuss on it, I'm with Fried on it.

Present Thanos is, obviously still a country mile from this. Arguably even more so then before as he Apologizes to Nebula before his death.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#162328: May 9th 2019 at 8:45:31 PM

I wondered if maybe the WIE aspect was significantly lost when the alternate one learned everything and changed his motivation to protecting his own pride and destroying everyone for being ungrateful, but yeah, I will say [tdown] to that version of Thanos and if I forgot to say it over a year ago, [tdown] to the original Thanos too.

@Sky There's also Dora the Explorer probably never having one (the cartoon at least), but let's not open that can of worms right now.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#162329: May 9th 2019 at 8:45:50 PM

OK so here's my unfortunately long explanation of the potential mitigating factor, but first I have to explain a bit about the world. Basically some people have the ability to use magic and very few can use a special type of magic which allows them to take magic from others. This ability is highly addictive for the user but is also very traumatic for them as well. During the opening chapter of the first book, which is written from the Autarch's perspective the normally self centered and pompous narration drops for a brief time to reflect on the fact that the only person who understands the pain of this magic is his enemy. It's shown through the other characters with this ability that they become much more ruthless, aggressive, and that it takes a toll on their psyche the main character, Mara, has this ability and finds it very difficult to resist the addiction despite also suffering from horrible nightmares and hallucinations caused by it, with the only truly effective method of dealing with it is to leave the kingdom for a place with less magic in it. The other character who has it, Arilla, took to its destructive power much more and thus becomes a villain later on. The Autarch displays a similar level of ruthlessness as Arilla and they both are much older than the Mara and thus have been more heavily affected by it. However there are some differences in the Autarch's life compared to Arilla, he's stated to have a slightly weaker ability than the other two, having to use masks to make it easier for him to take magic from others, also unlike Arilla nothing indicates that he's had as traumatic of a life outside of what's been caused by his magic. Arilla lost her home and family when she was a teenager while the Autarch, as far as we know had a mostly comfortable life as royalty, they have similar goals and ambitions but the Autarch is driven by the fear of being overthrown like his father and Arilla is simply ambitious. It should also be noted that he comes off as much more mentally stable than Arilla.

Sorry about the length of that this is kind of a complicated idea and I want to bring up this potential mitigating factor. I also may change his writeup both to fix a mistake and to include some of his other important crimes.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#162330: May 9th 2019 at 8:52:17 PM

Honestly... I think there's just enough room for doubt there to keep the Autarch. Him being compared as stable compared to Arilla compounds I think his transformation is a natural one rather than a complication of agency.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#162332: May 9th 2019 at 9:02:55 PM

Yes to all of the candidate I missed except for Bi Han

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#162333: May 9th 2019 at 9:09:02 PM

[tup] Mondraneth

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#162334: May 9th 2019 at 10:18:47 PM

One more for tonight:

What's the work?

The Mysterious Cities of Gold is a French-Japanese production set in the 1500s, concerning Esteban, a young boy in Spain who quests to find his father, after being found by a man named Mendoza...Esteban? is the key to finding the mysterious lost cities of gold in the Americas, though he doesn't know it...while also becoming involved with ancient conspiracies, extraterrestrial beings and the local conquistadors who are hungry for the gold...one of those is the subject of my EP: Francisco Pizarro.

Who is Pizarro?

A historical domain character who...umm...is not subject to any sort of Adaptational Villainy, being actually pretty close to the real guy. Pizarro arrived in South America, in the Incan regions for gold, glory and god...but mostly for gold and glory. Finding the Incans, Pizarro led the Spaniards to attack and, the show doesn't really shy away from this at all...proceeded to hit them with genocide and slaughter, killing tons and tons of innocent people, setting up shop and enslaving the rest.

I should note, btw, this isn't exactly subject to implication. Rather, we see a flashback of Pizarro's forces absolutely massacring people and the slavery that ensued, with Pizarro just griniding the rest of the Incans underneath his boot, with the narrator informing us exactly what happened. If this wasn't enough? Pizarro is a total bastard in just about every respect, finding Esteban and friends with full intent to get them to lead him to the cities for the gold therein...with full intent to murder Esteban and friends along the way, or to make them slaves as well. We see the oppression clearly and Pizarro at varying points? Orders villages wiped out if they're in his way as part of his schemes, albeit they're often saved.

By the end of things, however, Esteban and friends elude them and manage to find the cities of gold on their own...Pizarro is last seen threatening the young girl Zia before he's eluded, never receiving his comeuppance onscreen, while remaining in charge of his holdings in Peru...

.....Exceeeept the show is following history, so Pizarro? Will eventually be assassinated and die a miserable, painful death. Take that Karma Houdini!

Heinousness?

Now, the main villains are the Olmecs, a group of evil aliens out to commit genocide on humanity and more, but have WAY more power...even minor villains get up to a lot of nastiness, with a ton of 'attempts mass murder', but all of this happens under Pizarro's purview and often his sanction...more than that, Pizarro slaughtered the Incans, with tons of slavery and mass killing made clear to the viewer. He's handily the worst human around, without access to superweapons of the Olmecs. He handily passes this.

Mitigating Qualities?

None. Pizarro doesn't even put up a front of patriotism or piety. He's greedy, ruthless, ambitious, cruel and only cares about himself and his own advancement.

Conclusion?

Bone-solid keep.

AgeOfTropeEmpire Handsome Head of Hyperion Since: Nov, 2018
Handsome Head of Hyperion
#162335: May 9th 2019 at 10:19:39 PM

[tup] to Gregg, Mondraneth and Pizarro

[tdown] to Thanos. Though I personally loved Endgame to pieces and think that his character arc makes complete sense, I still clearly say he does not count. He gets far worse but it isn't to the point of nullifying his obvious disqualifying features.

Much like on the MB thread, I now bring forth another candidate from a franchise I have discussed before....the Batman: Arkham Series.

Who is Simon Stagg? What has he done?

Simon Stagg is a corrupt businessman in Gotham City who founded Stagg Industries alongside his brilliant partner Alex Sartorius. Though for a long while a legitimate company that dealt in every sort of research, Stagg's greed lead him to branch out into other areas.

Stagg began developing bioweapons and WMDs, selling them off to both the military and even more often the people the military were fighting, profiting off death and war across the globe.

Due to Stagg needing to test his bioweapons, he resorted to kidnapping countless people and performing experiments on them with the weapons, resulting in many deaths. He brushed these off when Sartorius hesitated to help him by claiming he made sure to kidnap people "no one will miss."

Also developing "Project Meta", Stagg used a chunk of Clayface's mass to create a monstrous creature that devours anything it touches, and Stagg began feeding it...."organic materials" (people) to sustain its form and study it as a potential weapon.

Eventually allying with Scarecrow, Stagg supplies his troops with powerful weapons and armor and assist them in their take over of Gotham before he begins creating "the Cloudburst", a dispersal device meant to spread cures for diseases at a fast rate, but instead modifies it to spread Scarecrow's fear toxin, knowing that Scarecrow is planning to flood Gotham with it.

Deciding to create his own strain of fear toxin, Stagg continues his experimentation on innocents, and resulting in many more deaths as people die from the gas scaring them to death, rip each other to shreds, and spend literal weeks in agony as Stagg keeps his victims alive as long as possible while flooding them with fear toxin. When one man's mind completely breaks after two weeks and he is reduced to a whimpering vegetable, Stagg annoyingly states that it it's "not good enough" and has him disposed of, only showing interest when one of his victims begins going into an insane rage and trying to kill everyone around him.

When Stagg learns that his "best friend" Sartorius is becoming more unstable and will possibly reveal Stagg's evil, Stagg turns him into one of his test subjects, subjecting him to fear toxin that makes him believe he is being burned alive constantly.

Eventually creating a strain of fear toxin that "is horrifying, gas masks are useless against it, and is world changing" that he can use along with the Cloudburst as a new WMD, Stagg betrays Scarecrow, trying to ditch him and Gotham City to sell his new weapons, but unfortunately for Stagg, Scarecrow gets the drop on him and takes control of his airships, torturing him into giving away the Cloudburst and its power sources.

When confronted by Batman, Stagg first tries to cover his own hide, refusing to acknowledge the Cloudburst or what Scarecrow plans to do with it and the millions who will die, before Batman threatens him into giving up the details of it and locks him up in a cage close by some chimpanzees Stagg has been drugging, at which point Stagg freaks out at the possibility of the chimps eating him.

Stagg is last seen arrested by the GCPD, proclaiming that he has made Gotham what it is today and that he'll be out by the next day, at which point he will work to destroy Batman and his real identity of Bruce Wayne.

Does Stagg have a Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?

None that hold up. Stagg seems to have always just been in it for the money, never truly caring about helping people, and he turns his best friend and lifelong partner Alex Sartorius into a test subject for fear toxin who is later killed.

He does, like in many continuities, have a daughter named Sapphire who he only mentions in the tie-in comics, but even then he only mentions her in one scene, where he tries to set Bruce Wayne up with her. But nothing indicates this is more than him seeking a merger with Wayne, as Bruce later says that Stagg has "tried to set me up with his daughter at least 6 times, it's creepy," and otherwise he never even acknowledges her.

And though he finally helps Batman learn how to take down the Cloudburst, this is only after Batman threatens his life. For the literal hours in between, Stagg swears off any knowledge, fully aware that Scarecrow is going to kill millions but refusing to help Batman stop him until his own life is threatened.

Finally, Stagg is treated like a pathetic Dirty Coward once he fails to betray Scarecrow, and spends much of his onscreen time begging for help or acting like a ridiculously smug asshole, but he and his crimes and are still treated with the horror that they are, with Batman even repeatedly blaming Stagg alongside Scarecrow for Gotham's plight.

Is Stagg sufficiently heinous?

I feel like his heinousness has been overlooked for a long time due to the fact that most of his onscreen appearances, he's nothing but a sniveling coward, but when you actually look at everything he has done? Stagg passes quite easily IMO.

In Sartorius's audio logs, he reveals that Stagg sells bioweapons to terrorists and the military alike to profit off of war and death, and reveals that Stagg has been experimenting on people for years, resulting in countless deaths. In a Gotham City story, it is revealed that Sartorius was later turned into another test subject and saw himself being burned alive.

In the tie-in comics, you see that Stagg has created a Clayface-like monster who eats humans, and whom Stagg has been feeding humans to.

In the game itself, Stagg not only helps Scarecrow in his mass murdering takeover of Gotham, but Batman stumbles across entire hallways of cells filled with corpses, accompanied by Stagg's narration of the experiments with fear toxin he put the people through. People screaming in terror, begging for death, reduced to vegetables and killing each other are all heard over intercoms, and there are a lot of corpses seen. Stagg keeps countless people alive for weeks while drugging them with fear toxin, driving them insane until he disposes of them and moves onto other test subjects.

Finally, Stagg plans to use the Cloudburst as a new weapon to sell off world-wide to cause more death and mayhem for his own profit, knowing that it will be used to make "entire armies rip themselves apart."

No, he is not as personally affecting as Joker, Strange, etc, but when you get down to it, Stagg is a warmongering sociopath who has killed hundreds, possibly thousands, of people through bioweapons, experimentation, and assisting Scarecrow in his takeover of Gotham, and though yes, he is a pathetic scumbag almost laughable in what a wreck he is reduced to, it never undermines that he is a sick son of a bitch.

He's not a psychopath seeking to blow up Gotham or a criminal trying to rule like Penguin. He's a despicable businessman profiting off mass death and experimentation, giving him a unique niche.

Final Verdict?

Despite most, and even I myself, overlooking him for a long while, I think Stagg deserves this discussion and honestly, will give him a [tup]

Edited by AgeOfTropeEmpire on May 9th 2019 at 10:22:27 AM

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#162336: May 9th 2019 at 10:27:36 PM

Yes to Pizarro, and yes to Stagg, too. I never played Arkham Knight so I was skeptical when he was bought up... but damn, he's way worse than I thought he'd be.

Edited by FriedWarthog on May 9th 2019 at 10:28:05 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#162339: May 9th 2019 at 10:31:00 PM

I kinda figured Thanos would be a no ever since Infinity War failed to prove that he is a NSWIE. But this seals it.

I'm happy neither are going up.

And I think the serial killer argument only is for people with the same resources. Say a tyrant saved someone but nuked several planets. Obviously he isn't going to DQ the Serial Killer who has less resources. Actually they might in that case but only that case. I think it's telling when Shinryu doesn't disqualify any of the other Final Fantasy C Ms when he has destruction on a cosmic level.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#162340: May 9th 2019 at 10:34:23 PM

[tup] to Stagg

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#162341: May 9th 2019 at 10:41:17 PM

I'll say sure to Stagg. And easy yes to Pizarro... now, the Big Bad of the show (or the first season, at least—Lighty and I are watching the revival and reserving its future and final season)? Is King Menator, master of the Olmec tribe.

Who is Menator? What has he done?

Menator is lord of the Olmecs (kind of a Morlock-esque race of former humans who hid underground from a violent war that destroyed Atlantis and Mu, which resulted in them... changing) and all the cruelty they're responsible for. Menator tyrannizes many of the local tribes while killing those who rebel while devising ways to allow his race to become immortal. See, the Olmecs can't father children and are trying to find ways to stay alive. To ensure they live indefinitely, Menator has countless innocents murdered to harvest their skin cells to revitalize himself and his race, even kidnapping a young Mayan girl to serve as his personal slave. Except this comes with strings attached... Menator only selects those whom he deems worthy to survive in cryostasis, dismissing the lives of countless members of his own soldiers in missions they're doomed to fail in. In his first appearance, Menator tortures Esteban, Zia and Tao with a sort of shiny Agony Beam before deciding to have them harvested for their skin cells.

As the series progresses, we find Menator's goals also encompass finding the mysterious Cities of Gold to get at the legendarily powerful technology of the old civilizations for his own purposes. Menator, when Esteban and the others escape, gets word of the village they're hiding in... irritated and knowing the village has caused trouble before, Menator orders the kids captured for their cells while ordering the rest of the village massacred. Eventually, full-out rebellion breaks out and Menator responds by unveiling his secret weapon, a flying machine he uses to promptly vaporize dozens of fleeing Mayans. Leading Esteban and Tao into his clutches with Zia—whom he keeps even after promising Esteban to give him back—Menator and the others capture Tao during the failed attempt to take them done (and this leads to a great line when Menator cheerfully states "we are dreadful, aren't we?" when Tao tearfully calls him out on his atrocities).

Menator threatens to murder Tao by suspending him from a rope and literally beating him against and dragging him painfully across the face of a cliff. Finally finding the lost City of Gold, Menator and Kalmec reject its high priest's final offer of peace, revealing their sole creed and goal: to kill everyone else and take it all for themselves. The only thing that matters to them is power. Thankfully, Menator's attack provokes the built-in defenses of the City of Gold to step in, blowing up Menator's flying weapon with him caught up inside. Menator only survives long enough to have Kalmec drag him back to his base, croaking soon after as Kalmec's clumsy attempt to integrate the city's technology into the Olmec's base causes a meltdown and wipes them all out.

Any mitigating factors?

Menator preaches, on a surface level, everything he does is only to preserve the safety of his race—Kalmec even seems to believe it to some level. As the series goes on, this quickly falls apart as a farce. Menator's called out as only viewing his own people as slaves, and Menator cheerfully dismisses the lives of his own soldiers to pick-and-choose a handful of "worthy" Olmecs while essentially leaving the rest to die. Furthermore, the end pretty clearly establishes Menator's in it for power beyond everything else—everyone in his way can die for all he cares. He's easily, easily the worst in the show, too, and nothing else ever comes up that would vaguely redeem him.

Conclusion?

Easy yes. Classic case of a Not-So-Well-Intentioned Extremist.

Thoughts?

Edited by Scraggle on May 9th 2019 at 10:41:49 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#162342: May 9th 2019 at 10:49:20 PM

[tup]Everybody but Noob Saibot and Thanos

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#162344: May 9th 2019 at 10:58:25 PM

And a yep to Stagg and the Mysterious Cities of Gold examples.

Confession to make: I also watched Mysterious Cities of Gold during my childhood years in Boomerang but not that much so it feels cathartic I guess? tongue

One of the strongest shows by Pierrot :3 and the theme is awesome!

Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on May 10th 2019 at 12:59:07 AM

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#162345: May 9th 2019 at 11:01:56 PM

Ues to those above. I also watched a few episodes as a kid.

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#162346: May 9th 2019 at 11:05:00 PM

Menator's an easy yes.

And since Thanos and Stagg put me in the mood for comic books, I've found out that this year, Marvel's running a comic adapation of Spider-Man PS 4 called City at War, which simultaneously covers the game's story and new plot points! Totally reserving the discussion date for that one: not because I expect them to do a complete 180 on Mr. Negative or Doc Ock's personalities, but because new plot points could potentially give Scorpion the push he needs to be a CM since he didn't quite make it with his crimes in the game...

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#162348: May 10th 2019 at 12:51:55 AM

Goddammit this thread moves WAY too fast.

I just folderized Fighting Fantasy but kept it on the Gamebooks page. I also cut the Snow Witch.

[tup] Greg and the Fighting Fantasy candidates.

I was one of those who asked Lighty about 2014!Thanos; I had forgotten he loved Gamora.

He doesn't disqualify anyone. He's MUCH more powerful, and everyone else is fine in their tiers (a goddess in Hela; a planet in Ego; a terrorist? in Ronan; 3 HYDRA leaders in Skull and the Agents duo; a high-level CIA official in Rawlins; a lower-level-but-still-powerful asshole in Kilgrave).

Brainulator: That is correct. If two characters have the same resources, and character A is more heinous but only that character has loved ones, neither one is a CM.

I'll get to the rest later.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#162349: May 10th 2019 at 1:02:00 AM

I have another I'd like to get up tonight... this is a DC supervillain who debuted in the first run JSA: Classified, who was originally just a random character in the Pre-Crisis continuity that Ultra-Humanite hijacked. In Post-Crisis? Meet Delores Winters, or Endless Winter.

Who is Winters? What has she done?

A rising, vain Hollywood starlet who was kidnapped at the premiere of one of her movies, Winters' brain was taken out so Ultra-Humanite could steal her body. His surgeon, falling in love with Winters, decided not to kill her and put her brain in a new body. Winters... obviously wasn't keen on her body having been taken, but for reasons different than one might expect. Winters was obsessed with regaining the beauty she thought had been taken from her, and to this end, turned to reconstructive surgery. Even then, her body began to age, and Winters didn't want to die. The obvious solution? Winters finds her own estranged daughter she gave away years... and brain-swapped them in the same manner Ultra-Humanite had, taking over her daughter's youthful body and throwing away her daughter to die.

From here? Winters kept sinking and lower... Winters continued to obsess over becoming more beautiful and continued her skin trade onto the metas. Fancying alabaster skin, Winters had the superhero Icemaiden kidnapped and flayed alive, taking her skin for her own, not even allowing Icemaiden to die in her new state where she's kept alive in stasis. From there? Winters struck a deal with the supervillain Roulette to continue her vile skin trade; establishing an organ-trafficking operation, Winters has numerous metahumans kidnapped and forced to fight each other, with the losers being brought to her surgery room to have their superhuman organs ripped out from them.

Victims we see? Argus has his superhuman eyes cut out; a sapient super-gorilla has his arms chopped off; a metahuman named Peregrine has her wings ripped out; one named Godiva has her superhuman hair cut; another has his heart taken out with his survival being a miracle; all of them in agony, their body parts sold to rich celebrities who pay Winters hefty profits. When Mid-Nite finally busts into her operation, Winters has him sedated and orders his eyes taken out before having him shot, monologuing to him about her operation before Mid-Nite breaks loose and takes her operation to a halt. Winters escapes... and, in all things, meets her end in Cry for Justice, where Prometheus uses her as a disposable minion and kills her through a microchip in a flashback.

Any mitigating factors?

There's no sympathy ever accorded with Winters' admittedly horrible initial fate. Becoming the victim of a body-stealing mad ape would be an understandable FE in any other situation, except Winters never seems distressed or affected by that beyond whining about the "beauty" she lost. By the time she repeats that same process on her own daughter, I think it's safe to say she's no better than Ultra-Humanite; even her final, tearful breakdown when she tries to protest "I only wanted to be myself again!" comes off as the same narcissistic whining in her own flashback, and Mid-Nite affords her absolutely no sympathy, calling her "cold and dead inside."

There's nothing else to report. For such a minor villain, Winters' meta-human organ trafficking is a pretty special caliber of screwed up in this universe, and what she does to both her own daughter and Icemaiden (a noted LGBT superhero, which came off as a despicable move out-of-universe) bring her way past the baseline for an otherwise no-name villain who only appears in a few issues.

Conclusion?

Winters' niche for her low standing make me hinge to her being an easy keep.

Thoughts?

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#162350: May 10th 2019 at 1:21:35 AM

Sure there Scraggs

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."

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