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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#161676: May 7th 2019 at 4:40:39 AM

[tup] to Sessyoin Kira, Mirror Queen and especially Apophis.

Well done Lighty, I guess fifth (or was it sixth now?) time's the charm.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#161677: May 7th 2019 at 4:40:57 AM

Me as well.

Anyway, Back to the point, Please cut those Jerome tropes

Edited by Kylotrope on May 7th 2019 at 4:41:25 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#161678: May 7th 2019 at 5:09:26 AM

Yeah those don't hold up at all for Jerome. Burn them.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
razorrozar7 Migrated to Chloe Jessica! from Chloe Jessica Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Hooked on a feeling
Migrated to Chloe Jessica!
#161679: May 7th 2019 at 5:14:33 AM

silverblade cut them, they're gone.

however on looking at the page i notice that jerome also has a freudian excuse listed. isnt that also usually a disqualifier? either his sympathetic backstory nullifies his complete monster-ness, or his evil wasn't a result of anything in his backstory, in which case Freudian Excuse doesn't apply.

Migrated to Chloe Jessica!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#161681: May 7th 2019 at 5:52:32 AM

Oh hey, didn't expect Sessyoin Kira to get voted up.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#161682: May 7th 2019 at 6:13:13 AM

Any images for Blood Books, or should I just request locking for now and we can start up an Image Pickin' thread later?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#161683: May 7th 2019 at 6:19:59 AM

@rarzor: We take an FE case by case. Different authors will portray something as synpahetic or not.

Plus some stuff goes over and above what happened to them.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Enigmatic_Mastermind from Limbo Since: Sep, 2018
#161684: May 7th 2019 at 7:18:16 AM

So, I just looked at Trainspotting's YMMV page and was surprise that Sick Boy apparently is considered a CM in the books. He definitely doesn't qualify as one in the movies (redeeming qualities and insufficently heinous), which are said to be rather faithful to the books but whatever. It's a weird entry to me, basically just saying that he MAY be a CM. So I searched around but didn't find any proposal for him, and the entry itself doesn't explain very much what he has done, and what it says he has done seems insufficent to me. So is it possible that this one was sneaked in without any approval?

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#161685: May 7th 2019 at 7:18:33 AM

@rarzor: FE is a case by case basis. As some authors might portray something sympathetically, while another might not.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#161686: May 7th 2019 at 7:22:08 AM

For example, say a villain was abused as a child by his father, and said abuse included being forced to eat a certain food, and the villain decided to burn down a factory of innocent workers which manufactured the same product, it's possible that his actions far outweigh his FE, specifically if the narrative portrays the villain as going too far.

Especially if the villain's actions are not played for comedy.

Edited by SkyCat32 on May 7th 2019 at 10:24:30 AM

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#161687: May 7th 2019 at 7:23:59 AM

Does the site define FE differently than we do? We usually see an FE as being something bad that happened to someone regardless of context and then work from there to see if the FE is mitigating. Are we going to have to redefine how we handle FE's?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#161688: May 7th 2019 at 7:29:37 AM

From the page description.

Unforunately, just like a Pet the Dog moment, the Freudian Excuse sometimes fails to give a villain any depth at all. If the villain is particularly evil, it can come across as an illogical and lame Non Sequitur: "his father beat him, and that's why he's an Omnicidal Maniac." Even if the villain's crimes are proportionate, the writers have to strike a hard balance. Too much emphasis on the excuse, and it looks like they're attorneys justifying the villain. Too little, and it is a fallacious Appeal to Pity that looks like a ridiculously gratuitous scene of Wangst. However, this can in turn be highlighted in-story if the other characters point out that Freudian Excuse Is No Excuse. In cases of Complete Monsters, it fails to justify anything, merely explaining their origins and nothing more. It could even be used to make the character worse, since they reject the possibility of ever getting over their trauma and changing their ways.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#161689: May 7th 2019 at 7:34:03 AM

Just like I said with the example of the factory arsonist. It's likely that being abused by one's father does not justify the wanton murder of innocent people according to the narrative.

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#161690: May 7th 2019 at 7:42:55 AM

It is REALLY a case-by-case basis. Some approved candidates have suffered very traumatic events, but have gone on to do acts of such great evil that they almost feel like a whole different character.

My go-to for examples like this was one of my previously approved candidates: Rowan Darkwood from Planescape. He was a ranger who spent much of his life fighting evil giants and generally being all around Chaotic Good, took his son's place in literal hell for ten years before being released, and went home to find everyone he cared about had moved on. Ultimately, however, he decided to spend the rest of his life gaining power at no matter the cost and committed some truly horrible atrocities, bad even by Dungeons and Dragons standards.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#161691: May 7th 2019 at 7:53:57 AM

I'm not sure I like how the trope page seems to be a bit... "restrictive" on how an FE can be used well or poorly. The bold words mir gave us seem like they were added to try and fix the description and make it more workable and less "either/or".

I'd probably cut some of the stuff about attorneys and what not and just say "how much an FE explains a villain's actions can vary. It's important to balance it out if you're writing a villain and you want them to come across as sympathetic or not."

...Actually, that doesn't work either. Meh. Leave it as is. I ain't touching such a long standing description.

AFreakyDude Since: Jul, 2015
#161692: May 7th 2019 at 8:25:07 AM

Did anyone propose Kronika yet, or did someone say, "not worth the proposal?"

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#161693: May 7th 2019 at 8:26:41 AM

Lighty is doing it.

Patience people.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#161694: May 7th 2019 at 8:29:09 AM

That’s really confusing to have two villainous twin brother characters with almost the exact same name. I really gotta catch up on that show.

AFreakyDude Since: Jul, 2015
#161695: May 7th 2019 at 8:30:34 AM

Good to hear that Lighty will prepare it. Looking forward to the Kronika proposal.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#161696: May 7th 2019 at 8:31:14 AM

In the meantime. Since were so clearly bored. Anyone got an ep?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#161697: May 7th 2019 at 8:34:50 AM

@miraculous Don't personally have one yet. Though I'm going to look at one of the Western Animation shows Overlord recommend it to me via PMs

Also, I'm gonna jot down my name for Honkai Impact 3rd for future discussion dates

And right, I'm going to do Saw Boss and Mother Brain writeups. That one can wait for a while

Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on May 7th 2019 at 10:35:20 PM

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#161698: May 7th 2019 at 8:42:38 AM

I am adding the Jane Whitefield novels by Thomas Perry to my To-Do list.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#161699: May 7th 2019 at 8:58:33 AM

Yes to Aphophis, Mirror Queen and Kiara.

Unfortunately, some of the CYOA books I got from the library did not pan out in terms of having monsters in them. I am waiting on a few more, but they seem like long shots, that would be the end of CYOA books I can easily get from the library. So I do not have anyone to propose.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#161700: May 7th 2019 at 9:04:36 AM

Sadly I dont have anyone either

You know there were a few buffy the vampire slayer CYOA books. I rember one featured a demon called the sucide king. A lower level demon who convinces and eventually barinwashes happy teenagers into killing themselves and has done so for centuries. Worth an ep? Or too standard for the verse?

The book is non-canon so he'd only need to compete with whats in season one but I dunno.

Edited by miraculous on May 7th 2019 at 9:17:49 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

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