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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#160426: Apr 30th 2019 at 5:22:48 PM

Yeah, that movie (which seems like a self-indulgent circle jerk) seems WAY too comedic for anyone to count.

Are we expanding Thailog's writeup to include the And I Must Scream?

Edited by ACW on Apr 30th 2019 at 8:23:13 AM

NTG Since: Aug, 2014
#160427: Apr 30th 2019 at 5:24:48 PM

Here's my entry for Deidranna. Setting a very high heinous standard for the franchise.

  • Jagged Alliance 2: Deidranna Reitmann is the despotic ruler of Arulco. As Queen-Consort she murdered her husband’s father and framed him for it, becoming the new ruler. After turning the country into a brutal dictatorship, she had people tortured and executed for minor offenses. Worst of all, she ordered the death of everyone she condemned to weak - elderly, sick or disabled -not even sparing infants. Even her own tropes weren’t spared from her cruelty as she would threaten to execute their families for failing her. In the Sci-Fi mode she's also responsible for the creation of the Crepitus and gives orders to lure them to the surface by no longer feeding them, not caring in the slightest that the creatures will not only eat her enemie but her own tropes aswell.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#160429: Apr 30th 2019 at 5:25:17 PM

I think we should, and if someone can confirm that he tries to kill the clones that should probably go up as well.

Also changing to [tdown] on Danny Mc Bride

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#160430: Apr 30th 2019 at 5:27:50 PM

But don't we have approved CM candidates from comedies (The Terror from The Tick, Ajax from Deadpool, and Stu Camillo from Future Man)? I mean Danny is humorous but has really done some god awful things and has zero redeeming qualities.

Edited by G-Editor on Apr 30th 2019 at 2:28:12 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#160431: Apr 30th 2019 at 5:29:16 PM

I’ll give a tentative [tdown] to the fictional Danny McBride. The moment where he reflects on the revelation of the Apocalypse gives me pause, but it’s probably one moment in the scope of things that doesn’t matter. He seems to be played just seriously enough from what I remember of that movie, but I’ll agree with what’s been stated above.

Also, Jonah Hill praying for Jay Baruchel to die is all he really does as then everything else he does is by possession.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Apr 30th 2019 at 5:30:24 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#160434: Apr 30th 2019 at 5:43:32 PM

[tdown] Danny it really seems like the movie doesn't take itself seriously enough. Just because other comedies have had approved examples doesn't mean that this film is going to have the right tone to have one.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#160435: Apr 30th 2019 at 5:58:02 PM

And being entirely honest, Thailog is one who I wouldn't mind an expansion. It's a fair point that the entry misses out on some of his really bad crimes, and if it's causing confusion among some other tropers in how they qualify, this is a case where a rewrite would actually be warranted to better communicate the full extent of his atrocities.

NTG Since: Aug, 2014
#160436: Apr 30th 2019 at 5:59:25 PM

Having watched the movie, I've to agree with the majority and give Danny Mc Bribe a [tdown]. The whole part with him turning into a cannibal and keeping Tatum as a sex slave is Played for Laughs instead of being portrayed as a serious example of an ordinary person doing horrible and depraved things to his fellow man.

Shortly afterwards, a guy’s accession to heaven is cancelled because he’s flipping off the cannibals. I think that says all about how serious this movie takes itself.

Sure it has a few genuine horror moments but the part with Danny Mc Bribe is none of them.

lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#160437: Apr 30th 2019 at 6:01:14 PM

Over on the Unreleased Work Speculation Cleanup thread there's been a discussion about whether Deltarune's CM entry is valid since the full game isn't out yet and standard practice is to wait for a full release; on the other hand the full game may never come out and the existing chapter is a fully playable game.

Any ideas as to what to do?

The Protomen enhanced my life.
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#160439: Apr 30th 2019 at 6:02:38 PM

We had that discussion. We ruled it as valid before the effortpost was made—sort of a different matter than me, say, waiting on proposing Helgenish from the Octopath Traveler demo who had a full arc in the demo but couldn't be accurately measured until the full game was released. It's a lot more ambiguous with Deltarune.

Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)
#160440: Apr 30th 2019 at 6:10:16 PM

Where was it determined that a demo counts as a full work release? I tried searching for '"subpages cleanup complete monster" deltarune' but didn't find anything.

KnowoneknowswhoIam Since: Sep, 2018
#160441: Apr 30th 2019 at 6:20:12 PM

I have a few examples of complete monsters that should be nominated and possibly added, for the following games: Red Dead Redemption and Red Dead Redemption 2: they are Leviticus Cornwall, Colm O'Driscoll, Clara Le Guerte, Dutch Van Der Linde, Mario Alcade from the first and second game; they are all treated deadly seriously, they all have complete control of over their words and actions, they show zero remorse, sadness, sorrow, guilt, and real repentance for their actions, they have no redeeming traits, no loved ones, no standards, nothing. What do you guys think?

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#160442: Apr 30th 2019 at 6:20:46 PM

What's the work?

Men in Black: The Series is a cartoon series based on the famous movie from the 90s. It chronicles Agents J and K on their various adventures. My candidate is the alien Z-Ron from episode 2.

Who is he? What does he do?

Z-Ron is a vicious alien serial killer who poses as a cute and cuddly alien in order to fool people. Z-Ron flees to Earth to escape justice, but is pursued by an alien cop named Treblor. Treblor tells Agents J and K that Z-Ron is a dangerous murderer who has killed 40 aliens, and they agree to team up to catch Z-Ron. Eventually, however, it is revealed that Treblor is actually a bounty hunter named Buzzard, and Buzzard immoblizes K just after K warns J.

Meanwhile, J finds Z-Ron with a litle boy, and sees how friendly it is with the boy. This, coupled with K warning J that Buzzard is dangerous, makes J think that Z-Ron is harmless. After J and K defeat Buzzard, J sets Z-Ron free, and Z-Ron begins to reveal his true nature to J. J is almost killed, but he is rescued by another agent, who reveals that Z-Ron has a habit of "playing with his food"(acting cute and friendly before viciously murdering his victims). Next, after fooling the little boy again, Z-Ron attempts to eat him, but J manages to immoblize him and Buzzard takes him away.

Heinous standard?

Doing research, it seems his MO is unique for the series. Not even the two currently listed C Ms, Alpha and Vangus, attempt it. Z-Ron also has way less resources than either one, and seems to rack up a sizeable bodycount for his resources level.

Mitigating qualities? Freudian Excuse?

No redeeming qualities. He is portrayed as fully sapient and manipulative(tricking J and the boy into thinking he's harmless) rather than animalistic, as well as sadistic with his whole "playing with his food" shtick.

The reason why he was dismissed previously was because of concerns that he was just like any another member of his species, due to a line that K said at the end of the episode. However, I have learned this only applies if we see other members of the villain's species. In the episode, Z-Ron is the only member of his species shown, so that's not an issue.

Conclusion?

I give him a yes.

[up]You need to do a proper effortpost for each one. This post is a good example of an effortpost.

[down]Well, I thought that since there was only one member of its species shown, that makes it an Informed Attribute.

Edited by falcontalons on Apr 30th 2019 at 6:24:50 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#160443: Apr 30th 2019 at 6:23:19 PM

Ooh, Z-Ron is one I so wish counted. Ravok and I considered him during our watchthrough and he's certainly heinous enough... the issue is a line toward the end of the episode indicates this is all completely normal behavior for the species, which kind of puts a cork in him being individually horrible. Him being the only member of his species I'd argue makes it even worse as we have no gauge as to if the rest are as horrible as him, which brings up too many agency/Always Chaotic Evil concerns up for me to be comfortable saying yes.

Still, if nothing else, he's worth the post.

Edited by Scraggle on Apr 30th 2019 at 6:24:49 AM

KnowoneknowswhoIam Since: Sep, 2018
#160444: Apr 30th 2019 at 6:25:32 PM

Please say anything about my post? Please?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#160445: Apr 30th 2019 at 6:25:48 PM

Yes indeed. There's one line at the end when Kay comments this is just how Z-rons are.

"I have a few examples of complete monsters that should be nominated and possibly added, for the following games: Red Dead Redemption and Red Dead Redemption 2: they are Leviticus Cornwall, Colm O'Driscoll, Clara Le Guerte, Dutch Van Der Linde, Mario Alcade from the first and second game; they are all treated deadly seriously, they all have complete control of over their words and actions, they show zero remorse, sadness, sorrow, guilt, and real repentance for their actions, they have no redeeming traits, no loved ones, no standards, nothing. What do you guys think?"

Cornwall, Colm and La Guerte flunk the heinous standard....and Dutch? No, dutch does not, cannot count. He is a sad, broken down man played for tragedy.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#160446: Apr 30th 2019 at 6:26:31 PM

What Falcontalons said; make some effortposts. Don't just assume familiarity with the candidates/series in a single post.

With that said, we've made a pretty thorough litigation of Red Dead—Colm I know we've voted down.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#160447: Apr 30th 2019 at 6:27:02 PM

@Knowoneknowswho Iam You have to effort post the characters if you want them to be approved, there is a link to a template for effort posts at the bottom of my post. Also some of those character may have been discussed before so wait until someone else says if they have or not.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
KnowoneknowswhoIam Since: Sep, 2018
#160449: Apr 30th 2019 at 6:28:34 PM

Just because Cornwall, Colm, Mario, Alacada, and Clara are minor still does nothing to detract from their heinousness of their actions, as they manipulated, killed, robbed, and tricked for next to no real reasons, i,e sadism, and thrill of it.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#160450: Apr 30th 2019 at 6:28:36 PM

Also, in reference to the Deltarune questions, the topic begins here.


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