During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Pelley rewrite looks good. Wonder when we will get a Monster page for game mods and total conversions. I think apart from Pelley we have the Super Mario 64 total conversion guy and not sure who else.
Also a bit of trivia. Pelley is arguably not the first figure to hit all the CM qualifications in a HOI 4 mod, the first HOI 4 mod character to hit all the CM qualifications would actually be Red World's portrayal of current British PM Theresa May as an Adam Sutler expy out to turn Britain into a fascist theocracy. The only reason I've never EP'd her is that, while Red World isn't necessarily extremely trashy satire made in bad taste it would be wayyy too controversial to discuss right now.
Also, don't discuss Spongebob at all. Let's not go there.
Edited by xie323 on Apr 28th 2019 at 5:13:54 AM
It’s funny how Mr. Krabs is listed in the Never Again List, but Eric Cartman isn’t despite the latter being a better archetype as such than Krabs
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffI may have one based on a story Scrags has been working on. It's nearly finished. And I myself recently finished a long-ass story about a week ago if anyone wants to check it out.
I usually don't self-advertise, but at this point, why not.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.Since people currently bringing up old candidates, allow me to throw my hat in the ring.
The candidate:
King Sombra is an evil Unicorn from a very popular series called My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. Now he didn't show much personality in his first appearance but in the current Season he returned and...
Just kidding!
The real candidate:
Deidranna Reitman, the dictator of Arulco and the Big Bad of Jagged Alliance 2
The backstory:
Arulco was once a peaceful South American nation. While the ruler of the country was a monarchy they did hold elections for the positon every ten years. In the most recent election the candidates were Enrico Chivaldori, son of the current king, and Miguel Cordona. Cordona was extremely popular, so Enrico's father decided to find a bride for his son, hoping that a wedding would help Enrico win the election. After a hasty international search, Deidranna Reitman, a women hailing from Romania, was chosen as the bride. The following wedding gave Enrico a huge popularity boost and he became the next king. Sadly, for almost every single living person in Arulco, Deidranna had high ambitions and no intention to share the throne.
Her deeds:
Within a year after the election Deidranna poisoned her husband’s fathers, framed him for the murder and had him imprisoned. Shortly afterward a group of rebels lead by Miguel Cordona, faked Enrico's death and smuggled him out of the country. After the “death” of her husband, the queen wasted no time and turned the county into a full-blown dictatorship. All members of the judicial system were executed and people were sentenced to death for minor crimes. In the capitol a large arena was build, where prisoners would be feed large feline predators called Blood Cats. Her most heinous crime, however, was the order to kill everyone she deemed unworthy of life: The elderly, the sick and the disabled. Even babies weren't spared.
In one notable case a man couldn’t visit a parade of the Queen because he had to take care of his sick son. Soon soldiers showed up at his door stop, killed his son and put the man into prisoner, where he was tortured. While it's unlikely that Deidranna directly gave the orders, she was the one responsible for all this. To no-one’s surprise, Deidranna became the most hated person in Arulco. Yet she still had the support of the military and the rich, allowing her keep the population in check. The only ones fighting back were the rebels under Miguel Cordona. Yet they were no match for Deidranna troops. The army invaded the town of Omerta, the stronghold of the rebel movement, razed it to the ground and killed most of its inhabitants.
Thankfully Enrico Chivaldori, decided to do something about the Deidranna problem and used the rest of his money to hire a mercenary leader (aka the Player Character) to kill Deidranna and liberate Arulco. The PC and his team arrive in the ruins of Omerta, contact Miguel and remaining rebels (or not, the game gives you complete freedom on how to reach your goal) and begin the liberation of Arulco.
Every time a town has been liberated or something importuned happened, a cut scene shows Deidranna inside the royal palace where her advisor Elliot gives her the bad news. This usually results in Elliot getting slapped by Deidranna, culminating in her shooting him (which he survives) when he informs her that the PC has reached the capitol.
When the player has activated the Sci-Fi mode at the beginning of the game, Deidranna is also in control of a deadly bio weapon: Giant insect-like monsters straight out of a horror movie. Then at some point she gives the order to stop feeding them. When Elliot points out that the creatures make no difference between friends and foe and will killing everything – including her own men – Deidranna’s simply response is: “I don’t care.”
Sufficient to say that when the PC succeeds and finally kilsl Deidranna inside the palace, she’s missed by absolutely no-one. Miguel (if he survived) or Enrico becomes kings, promises to hold new elections soon while also abolishing the monarchy.
Mitigating factors:
So I did a quick search and learnt that Deidranna already had an unapproved CM entry. A trooper, thankfully, deleted that entry together with several more. He didn’t made an EP for Deidranna, believing that she’s no CM because she has friends.
This is where I disagree. It’s mentioned several times that the few wealthy people of the country support her, but she is never seen interacting with them or showing the slightest bit of kindness to them.
The closet thing we get to her acknowledging her “friends” is a cutscene after the PC’s mercenaries have liberated Balime, the home town of the elite. In the cutscene she complains to Elliot about how all her friends are now staying in her palace and that their children are crawling over her throne.
You could argue that, letting them stay in the palace (and not killing the children) is a mitigating factors, but in her voice isn’t an ounce of sympathy for their plight. It’s just her being annoyed about the situation. Presumably she’s only letting them stay for pragmatic reasons: These people are her strongest supporters and she needs them and their money.
Offstage Villainy isn’t an issue, either. The intro shows the destruction of Omerta, with the military gunning down fleeing civilians. Then during another cutscene, we see people getting whipped, people getting executed and a doctor giving a crying baby a lethal injection. The part with the baby was removed at some point, but it still happened on-screen, so I believe it counts.
The only crime that defiantly doesn’t count is her abuse of Elliot . Elliot is portrayed as a moron and her slapping him is played for laughs. Say about that what you will, but the game clearly intends for you to not take it serious. Even when he’s shot, he simply offers to drag himself out to which Deidranna angrily responds that he’s “even too stupid to die”.
Heinous standards:
Now this is the biggest issue of my EP. You see, I only ever played Jagged Alliance 2 and don’t know much about the other games. This isn’t helped by the fact that the continuity of the franchise is… complicated. So everything here is second-hand information and should be taken with a grain of salt. I would appreciate comments from people who’ve actually played these games.
The villain of the first game, took over an island with his mercenaries to gain control of a unique tree species. He seems bad, but not full-blown genocide-level bad like Deidranna.
The standalone Add-On of the first game, has the player complete a series of missions, with each one taking place on a different map. There’s an overarching story about a terror group wanting orbital supremacy, but there’s no mentiond of a leader. In fact, the only real NPC in the whole Add-On is the Gus Tarbell, who gives you the mission briefings. Everyone else on the map is just faceless mook (or a faceless civilian).
In the Add-On from the second game, the mining cooperation who controlled Arulco’s mines under Deidrenna, threats to launch missiles at the cities or Arulco if they don’t get their mines backs. This sounds heinous enough, but the only villain you actually encounter in the Add-On is the leader of the mercenaries guarding the missile base. The people in charge aren’t seen and you learn nothing about them.
Then the franchise went into a long hiatus and the license moved from developer to developer. There was Jagged Alliance Online game about which I know nothing and which is probably defunct by now.
This was followed by Back in Action, a live-action remake of the second game. It was successful enough to get its own Add-On called Crossfire.
Another Jagged Alliance called Flashback was (barley) founded via Kickstart. It was so "successful" that the developer went bankrupt soon afterwards.
The most recent game was Rage. Taking place many years after the second game (and probably ignoring every other game that came afterwards). The one thing I remember about this is that they made Elliot, Deidranna’s advisor and butt-monkey, the Big Bad.
So the continuity is a mess and I’m not really interested in playing a bunch of mediocre or outright bad sequels. Deidrenna is horrible and the things she did – which includes large-scale infanticide – are sound bad enough. But maybe I’m wrong and then heinous standard of the franchise is similar to the one of Warhammer. Who knows?
My Verdict
Despite not truly knowing the heinous standard I feel comfortable giving her a
.
Actually, Lighty and I have kind of informally reserved Tails of the Bounty Hunter (said long story of Tyk's)... well, okay, there's probably going to be a surplus of potentials to go around, but if anyone else is interested, mind PMing me first? I've had my eye on that one since it started.
Anyways, I'm not going to bother commenting on the mess with Mia. Everyone's said what I wanted to say. I'm comfortable saying yes to Deidranna; doesn't sound like her old mitigating factors hold up and she easily clears the baseline at the least—enough research has clearly been done to grant you the confidence she passes the series' standard too.
Edited by Scraggle on Apr 28th 2019 at 6:21:14 AM
Sure,
to Deidranna Reitmann. Why not.
@Scrags: Yeah, I know you two got that reserved, and I got your story Mirrorworld reserved. Just felt like talking about something else after the mess that has went down today.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
to Deidranna
Was going to do my write ups first but to help get some more solid discussion going here is a candidate for the thread
What's the work?
Angel Wars was a short-lived animated series that, like Arrethtrae, had Christian principles and lore applied to it. A science fiction series set in the future where humans and aliens exist, the story follows the efforts of the Angel group called the "Guardian Force", who use their flagship The Seven as a base to patrol the Earth and fight off any demons assaulting the planet.
Who is Morg? What has he done?
Once the angel Morgan, he was an upstart and arrogant angel, but best friends with Michael and Arriana. When Michael was promoted to archangel, Morgan became jealous, and when Morgan was entrusted with one of the powerful "Foundation Stones," he decided to ally with the Devil Expy called "the Dragon" and gave the Foundation Stone over to the demon Graven to be delivered to the Dragon.
Morgan, dubbing himself "Morg" and undergoing a roboticization, then tried to murder Michael but was beaten and sent fleeing to the Dragon, but unfortunately Graven had betrayed them all and taken the Foundation Stone for himself, and the Dragon, angered at Morg's failure, locked him away in a coma-like state.
In the present, Morg contacts two demons, Cubus and Shadow, and orders them to harness the negative energy of a human and supply it to himself, which will energize his robotic body and allow him to escape his prison. This plan seems to fail thanks to the interfering of the Guardian Force, but Morg manages to escape with a burst of energy.
Tracking down Graven, Morg steals the Foundation Stone from him and uses it to murder him before trying the same on nearby angel Swift, leaving him in critical condition.
Manipulating his way onto a ship heading for a moon colony of humans, Morg is confronted by Arianna, who tries to get the ship to turn around and head back to Earth. Morg doesn't even blink before he damages the ship's engine, making it fall towards the moon colony and nearly crash into several people who are saved by Arriana.
Using the Foundation Stone to turn a tunneling robot into a murder machine, Morg sics it on the moon colony as a distraction, and the robot nearly murders dozens of people before being destroyed by the Guardian Force.
Morg meanwhile uses the Foundation Stone to finish what he had begun before he was imprisoned, as he plugs the Foundation Stone into a giant rocket that he plans to fire at the Earth and wipe out all of humanity before offering the destroyed planet to the Dragon to once again get into his good graces.
Arianna destroys the rocket before Morg can fire it, and Morg then captures her and shoves the Foundation Stone into himself, beginning to merge with it.
Travelling to an underground fighting ring for demons, Morg uses Arianna as a wager to fight the current demon boss for rule of the fighting ring, and manages to best the demon boss by absorbing him into the Foundation Stone, literally "devouring" him.
Morg grows in power after eating the demon boss and directs the fight club toward Earth, planning to invade it, but unfortunately Morg realizes that the more he "eats"/absorbs, the more his power grows, and he begins devouring entire chunks of the fighting ring. When his sycophantic advisor suggests retreating when the Guardian Force arrives, Morg eats his advisor....then begins devouring his entire new army, eating them one by one as he grows in power and size.
Arianna warns Morg that the Foundation Stone is overcoming him and making him need to feed to grow stronger, and Morg agrees....before laughing and proclaiming that he's enjoying his growing power and that he embraces the Foundation Stone.
Trying to devour the Guardian Force, Morg's true form is confronted inside the gigantic mass of Foundation Stone monstrosity he has become by Michael, who seeks to end Morg's insanity and convince him that the Dragon will never take him back. Morg then reveals that his plans have changed, he no longer wants to serve the Dragon or even rule. All he wants is for their to be nothing in existence "higher" than himself, and so he plans on consuming the entire universe to leave himself as the only thing alive, starting with the Earth.
Michael fights Morg while the rest of the Guardian Force duel his monstrous Foundation Stone form, and Morg is ultimately overcome and proceeds to beg Michael to spare him, but when Morg ends up hanging from a ledge, Michael offers to pull him up and offer him redemption...and Morg sneers "I wouldn't give you the satisfaction" and lets go of the ledge, falling to his death to Michael's horror, and the Foundation Stone is recovered and returned to safety.
Does Morg have a Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?
No. Morg is an ambitious, ruthless brute who betrayed his best friend out of jealousy, and though he was imprisoned by the Dragon, this was after trying to murder Michael and making plans to wipe out humanity. He at first seems to want to get back into the Dragon's good graces, but this is only for power, and even that is then thrown out when he plans to devour the entire universe, including all demons and potentially even the Dragon himself.
Is Morg sufficiently heinous?
Absolutely, Morg is the Big Bad of the show with the Dragon as the Greater-Scope Villain, but the Dragon never even appears onscreen and Morg surpasses him and any other villain in evil. And given that his plans are first the destruction of humanity, then complete Omnicidal Maniac, with the murders of dozens of demons and threatening the entire moon colony as bonuses, I think he passes especially for a kids' show.
Final Verdict?
Easy

![[up] [up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png)
I can only assume that at some point, someone was VERY insistent about adding him
HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA