During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Hobbes. Never thought I'd see the day where John frickin' Hodgman would be playing such a nasty villain.
Goku Black
Brain and zane
Handsome Head of Hyperion
Now to round off the Arrethtrae candidates, the most potentially divisive one
Who is Kifus? What makes him a candidate?
Kifus is a recurring villain throughout both the Kingdom and the Knights sagas in the franchise.
Long ago, the Noble Knights were appointed to be the Elite Guard of the city of Chessington, the capital of Arrethtrae, by the King. In the present, the Noble Knights are lead by Kifus, but unfortunately, Kifus and the other Noble Knights have twisted the words of the King, and now rule over Chessington with an iron fist.
Kifus gives out just enough rations to the people to keep them from starving, soaking in their appreciation for such a little gesture and enjoying how he literally holds their lives in his hands. Many families don't receive enough food however, and Kifus's Establishing Character Moment comes in such instance.
Kifus is built up to be a noble, caring man, and seems affable enough to his best friend Gavin, but he shows his true colors when he comes across a shopowner berating a young teenage girl for trying to steal food from him. Proclaiming that he must give out the punishment for theft, Kifus prepares to lop off the hand of the teenage girl—completely ignoring her nearby mother's screaming protests that she was only trying to get the food because her younger siblings were starving to death—however he is stopped by a mysterious stranger who blocks his sword strike.
Kifus attempts to murder the man for this act, but he easily defeats Kifus and reveals himself to be the Prince, the son of the King, who is now amassing Followers to his cause for the coming war with Lucius.
Unwilling to believe that the Prince is who he says he is both out of belief it is heresy and, more truthfully, because the man humiliated him, Kifus begins plotting to eliminate the Prince before his followers become too great in number.
Ambushing the Prince and several of his followers, Kifus threatens to murder them all if the Prince doesn't surrender, which he does. After having the Prince tortured, Kifus personally hangs him for all to see, leaving his body on display for awhile before having it disposed of.
Unfortunately for Kifus, the Prince's body mysteriously vanishes, and this, along with people proclaiming sightings of the Prince alive and well, inspires even more Followers to the Prince's cause.
Kifus, refusing to allow such "heresy" to continue, begins a mass crusade against the Followers, ordering them all to be locked up and treated horribly until they rebuke the Prince and promise to abandon their belief in him and their secret training to one day be part of his army. When the numbers of the Followers continue to grow, Kifus's fury grows and he increases the crusade to full-scale murder, having his men torture and kill Followers throughout Chessington, no matter of age, even dragging their families into the killing and torture with them.
Getting countless Followers and their families abused and murdered in Chessington, Kifus expands the Noble Knights's crusades to even further outside of their jurisdiction, raiding other lands to hunt down and execute any Followers they find.
Of course, Kifus also gives the order that the Noble Knights are only allowed to capture and kill Followers in other lands, so when a group of Noble Knights stumble across raiders killing a man and kidnapping his family to sell into slavery? Kifus's orders are to leave the family to be enslaved, as it is a "waste of resources and time" to try to help anyone who isn't in Chessington, and to focus all efforts are wiping out any Followers.
When Kifus discovers that one of the Noble Knights, Demus, has secretly become a Follower, Kifus has his tongue cut out and his thumbs lopped off before burning his home and abandoning him and his family in the middle of nowhere. Kifus also tries to have a young, new recruit to the Noble Knights murdered after he refuses to execute a pair of defenseless Followers.
Eventually, the Noble Knight Gavin, also Kifus's "best friend", turns on the Noble Knights and becomes a Follower after all of their brutality drives him away, and Kifus, learning through spies that Gavin has often interacted with a family—Weston, Marie, and their two young children Addy and Keaton—aptures them all.
With a smug smile on his face, Kifus has Weston brutally beaten before he loops nooses around the family and prepares to hang them for the entire city of Chessington to see, ultimately luring Gavin out of hiding. Gavin calls Kifus out for his Knight Templar personality leading him to know be killing innocent children, and Kifus duels Gavin. Upon realizing he is losing the duel, Kifus screams for the entire family to be hanged simply to torture Gavin, but Gavin holds his sword to Kifus's neck and forces him to let the family go lest he murder him.
Kifus releases Weston and his family, and Gavin then turns himself in, Kifus ordering him be brutalized and locked up.
In the duo's final confrontation, Kifus demands a reason as to why Gavin betrayed the Noble Knights, and Gavin tells Kifus of the Prince and his experiences with him, how the way of the Prince is the King's true desire and that if Kifus continues on his path, he will meet only destruction.
For the briefest of moments, Kifus actually seems to consider Gavin's words....only for him to sneer and proclaim "You almost had me, Gavin!" before ordering him to be locked away forever on a remote island, far away from any potential friends or fellow Followers, noting that he can't publically execute him lest he become another martyr like the Prince did.
And ultimately, Gavin's words come true: Due to both the growing number of Followers and Lucius's rise to power, the Noble Knights slowly die out, and Kifus's power and, implied, life itself are eventually taken from him.
Does Kifus have a Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?
None that hold up. Kifus acts like a noble, heroic knight of the people and the King, but he is nothing but a power-loving, fanatical Knight Templar who has twisted the Noble Knights's original goals to serve his own, twisted ideals. He doesn't care about innocent people, not in Chessington and especially not out of it.
He treats Gavin like a brother and best friend while Gavin is a Noble Knight, but as soon as Gavin becomes a Follower Kifus orders him be hunted down and killed, and takes glee in trying to murder him and the family he loves. After he has Gavin captured Kifus does note that he loved Gavin like a son before Gavin turned on the Knights, and demands to know what sparked such "betrayal", but it's thrown back in his face that Gavin hasn't changed at all except for his allegiance to the Prince, and that alone has made him worthy of death in Kifus's eyes, without concern that Gavin still loves Kifus like family.
He does have a sister, Leisel, who he informs Gavin he'd hand off to him should he want her, but there's zero interactions between Kifus and his sister, he refers to her in the same degree of his property and honor, and he treats her as a trophy that he can hand off to Gavin as a reward. When Gavin betrays him, Kifus notes "I gave you my honor, my trust, my sister, and you threw them all away!" Between this, their complete lack of interactions, and that Kifus never once says anything in the realm of caring for Leisel beyond trying to hand her off to Gavin and then using her to mock him, I don't see this as redeeming. When Gavin interacts with her, she never speaks of Kifus, either, so there is absolutely no basis to what if any relationship they have.
Also, Kifus's hatred of the Followers....is not justified nor warranted. Kifus may believe them guilty of heresy and blasphemy for believing that the Prince is the son of the King, but it all stems back to Kifus being humiliated by the Prince for the whole city to see. Kifus is a petty, self righteous nut, and the Followers are legitimately not doing anything morally wrong, they're just training to be ready to fight with the Prince, but Kifus takes this as heresy and has them tortured and killed by the mass.
Finally, in their final talk, Kifus asks Gavin why he turned on them, and Gavin talks of the Prince, the prophecies surrounding him, and how he has foreseen that Kifus will fall into destruction if he continues on his path, and that he still has a chance to stop the useless bloodshed and follow the Prince. Kifus gets a look of terror on his face, followed by serious contemplation, but ultimately it is an Ignored Epiphany / Redemption Rejection, as he then just snarls that Gavin "almost convinced" him and goes right back to his smug, self righteous personality.
Is Kifus sufficiently heinous?
Kifus is more of a unique set of villain in the novels, as he has zero affiliation with Lucius or the Shadow Warriors, and his goals don't entail any conquering or destruction of cities. But even still, Kifus makes it. His control over Chessington leads to many starving and being abused by the more cruel Noble Knights, Kifus himself nearly lops a teen girl's hand off for trying to desperately feed her dying siblings, and his persecution of the Followers entails torture and murdering of the Followers and even their families. Even beyond all of that, I think what pushes Kifus into CM heinous is his attempted hanging of Weston and his family—Addy is no older than 10, and Keaton is considerably younger than her—and the fact that he only does it out of spite and with a smug smile on his face. It's one of the most blatant, personally-affecting crimes in the series, and it is on top of everything else, all of the mutilation and murder.
Final Verdict?
Though he is easily the most complex of the Arrethtrae candidates, I think Kifus makes it. from me
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Out of curiousity, who's eveeyones favorite Playing Against The Type CM? For me, it's that time miles Luna, AKA Jaune from RWBY Voiced a CM. Or the fact he was so friggin good at it.
Go to 11:15 on here to see what I'm talking about...https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C9ZJJboTskU
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Tentative to Kifus.
Edited by Kylotrope on Apr 22nd 2019 at 12:41:47 PM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Kifus... Need to think on it. I'll lean yes as for now.
I guess Elijah Wood.
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Apr 23rd 2019 at 2:50:42 AM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
@Elfen
Fun fact, he played a CM on that same show
Edited by Kylotrope on Apr 22nd 2019 at 12:57:22 PM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Kifus
Edited by G-Editor on Apr 21st 2019 at 10:35:20 PM
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Somebody added an entry to Grizzly Tales for Gruesome Kids without consulting this thread.
IPP Wick Check created.
Can anyone tell me why my entry for Doyle from Drifter (2016) isn't in the draft or anywhere else? It was approved so why isn't it there?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Patience dude. It'll be submitted with this week's batch (check a few pages back).
Also, yes to the last 2.
As for most surprising actor: We got Whoopi Goldberg as Chesley Watkins.
Edited by ACW on Apr 22nd 2019 at 5:46:10 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
to Hobbes and both the Biohazard and Arrethtrae duos.
...holy crap that Resi 2 Manhua. It makes Anderson look damn well restrained and faithful - well, maybe not "faithful". I am still in awe this exists.
Um, yeah, "God" and Brian Irons. Funny that we have three Irons keeps yet only one Wesker.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Well, to be fair, that Wesker is over a LOT of games.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
This is also true. Though it's still funny his film counterpart doesn't count. Maybe. i think he's too subservient to the real Big Bad.
Also MORTAL KOMBAT TOMORROW! I'm getting a little hype.
to Zane and Kifus.
Goku Black
Kifus
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Irons, Zane and Kifus
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
The image of Bellatrix BTW. Let me add it to the batch.
I haven’t seen 13 Reasons Why, but I never would have pegged Justin Prentice as playing a CM after seeing him play such a dumb character on Malibu Country.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Apr 22nd 2019 at 6:39:48 AM
He was also a "crush of the week" on iCarly.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
BTW, tonight, I think I'll create an Arrethtrae work page so that we can create a CM page now that there's 7.
Stargate now has 7 (film, 5 TV, animated). Own page or nah? I'm fine either way (especially since Supernatural will almost definitely be getting one soon).
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
Uh we havent discussed any of the novels yet for stargate.
Lets wait till we see if those have keepers as well.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
As far as surprising CMs, Sophie Turner played Adeline March.
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills