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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#155951: Mar 29th 2019 at 9:21:53 PM

Now then...

What's the work?

Lensman was a major series of Sci Fi novels by EE "Doc" Smith from the Golden Age of Sci Fi that are majorly influential Space Opera books, concerning the heroes of the Galactic Patrol who do battle with the evil Boskone forces....a wicked empire led by the ruthless Lord Helmuth. Oddly enough? It was eventually turned into an anime, that was attacked for a variety of reasons, that takes a far cheesier and light hearted feel, of Kimball Kenison and friends fighting Boskone. And who's our villain? None otherthan...wicked Evil Overlord Helmuth.

Who is Helmuth?

A gigantic alien and Eldritch Abomination with mysticla powers, Helmuth is the tyrannical master of Boskone who seeks to conquer the Galaxy and harness the pwoer of the Lens. How's he do this? Okay, not to put too fine a point on it, the Boskonians under him are freaking nuts. Helmuth authorizes horrific attacks as a matter of course. Planets are razed, people burn, Galactic Patrol ships are wiped out and people die by the truckload, even before Helmuth is properly encountered in Episode 4.

Oh, and he signs off on another CM's plot to involve a fantastic drug delivered to turn an entire planet to stone. Scraggle'll cover that more, but Helmuth? Loves conscripting nasty little plots that do tons of damage, and he's an awful boss besides. When said subordinate, Neizel, ends up failing later, Helmuth gives him the standard punishment: agonizingly vaporizing him before he reveals himself to Kim and team. With an inconclusive battle, Helmuth resumes his usual with Boskone.

Oh, and if that wasn't enough, a later episode gives us Helmuth's other nastier crimes. One heroine reflects in flashback that Helmuth? Occupies planets he takes...and as almost a matter of course, subjects them to extermination and genocide if they prove an issue. Yes, this is how Helmuth rolls.

Unfortunately? This is just from 10 episodes. This is how we leave off, as a lotis done via his subordinates and the series is mostly lost...however, we do have it that he continues his nastiness until his defeat in the finale, but...for just this? He's impressive.

Heinousness?

Horrific plots. Mass slaughter. Planetary genocide. Helmuth is the defining evil space overlord. Pass. And easily surpasses all others here.

Mitigating Qualities?

You must be joking. Helmuth is a ruthless, depraved, genocidal tyrant out to rule all he can. Nothing good to him at ALL.

Conclusion?

The whole lost series aside thing? Helmuth qualified, easily, on all we have. Pass and pass again.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#155953: Mar 29th 2019 at 9:25:35 PM

Easy yes to Helmuth. The reason why I'm lenient on an EP for him is that there's literally no way to access the rest of the series unless you just happened to be a big Japanese executive with it archived somewhere.

Anyways, my keeper... Neizel of Boskone.

Who is Neizel? What has he done?

The Arc Villain of episode 3 to 4, Neizel is a sinister Bokone with a floating, clapping... erm, thing always floating by his side (as with most of the other Boskone commanders), Neizel is responsible for a series of little hobbies, responsible in the third episode for an outbreak of a fatal substance called Geonium. Taking residence in a chaotic planet called Trenco where the Geonium is produced, Neizel starts spreading it through the Aldeberan star system, leading to a multitude of fatalities across it... see, Geonium slowly petrifies the victim, causing their bodies down to the cells to become hard and brittle. We see a nightclub full of aliens slowly and agonizingly turned into “statues” as a demonstration of the breakout when the Geonium is embedded in the drink glasses. Kim and his crew go to try and intervene here, and Neizel reveals himself to them, gloating that he's now planning on selling the Geonium as a weapon, to tyrants with the right price to turn the populations of entire planets to stone with it.

Ordering the Lensmen killed, Kim and the other thankfully beat them back. In the following episode, Neizeil is laying waste to another planet, slaughtering their armies to put it under his control. Lord Helmuth appears on his screen and tells him to stop wasting time with his little hobbies and to focus on destroying the Lensmen busting his operations, leading Neizel to use a bioweapon that induces Mind Rape on the entire crew of Kim's ship, luring them to all be killed by the image of their loved ones beckoning. When Kim kills the beast, Neizel swoops in and tries to murder him and his companions while they're exhausted, beaten again by some of Kim's allied Lensmen from prior episodes who turn the tide to his favor. Neizel tries to beg help from Lord Helmuth... and he tiredly executes a pleading Neizel on the spot.

Any mitigating factors?

Haha. No. Not at all. The Boskone collectively are awful, but of the named commanders? Neizel is the best. He's got the biggest explicit body count, and the largest-scale, nastiest plan in the series, as well as being shown to enjoy all the typical atrocities a Boskonian commander puts themselves up to in their conquest. For basically a Starter Villain? Neizel is the worst in-series aside from Helmuth himself, and we don't have to worry about his fate being unresolved since he dies four episodes in.

Conclusion?

Keep.

Thoughts?

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#155958: Mar 29th 2019 at 10:21:39 PM

Sure to the above duo.

@Lightysnake Btw... I'm also reading another work of Kazuhiro Fujita. If there are two or more candidates, I'll report to you immediately

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#155963: Mar 30th 2019 at 12:56:28 AM

[tup] Helmuth and Neizel

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#155964: Mar 30th 2019 at 1:19:34 AM

[tup]sadoypshi , Helmuth and Neizel

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#155965: Mar 30th 2019 at 2:28:59 AM

I'll also de-pothole the other Akame ga Kill trio while I'm at it.

Yes to Karimata and the Lensman anime duo.

[down] Gotcha.

Edited by ACW on Mar 30th 2019 at 6:04:51 AM

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#155966: Mar 30th 2019 at 2:33:58 AM

@ACW I should note that I havent watch the OV As yet and Lord Sadayoshi crimes come from the manga. Though thats understandable why

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#155967: Mar 30th 2019 at 2:53:08 AM

[tup] to Sadayoshi and the Lensman duo.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#155968: Mar 30th 2019 at 3:43:29 AM

I was actually hoping we were talking about the original stories - do the Original Lensman tales have CM's?

Anyway, [tup] the previous two.

Edited by PolarPhantom on Mar 30th 2019 at 10:46:35 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#155969: Mar 30th 2019 at 4:24:54 AM

I'll check those out sooner or later

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#155970: Mar 30th 2019 at 4:40:42 AM

@acw: Actually didn't Polar Phantom get some AI from the game Fahrenheit approved as well.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#155971: Mar 30th 2019 at 5:02:56 AM

Oh yeah, that one. What was the final tally?

As for Lensman, this one? Is is Lensman Galactic Patrol or Galactic Patrol Lensman, or either one? Also, I'm intrigued: How did it get lost?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#155972: Mar 30th 2019 at 5:11:17 AM

Everyone voted yes (some votes were tentative or slight) but no one down voted that Im aware off.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#155974: Mar 30th 2019 at 5:54:40 AM

Update: I just recently watch the OVA about Puppet Princess or Karakuri no Kimi and Sadayoshi has similar crimes with his manga counterpart so he counts easily both in manga and in OVA

[down] Correct

Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Mar 30th 2019 at 8:11:05 PM

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#155975: Mar 30th 2019 at 6:03:58 AM

I guess we'll use the manga, since that came first?


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