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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#154076: Mar 11th 2019 at 5:40:48 PM

I'm giving a nay to Grimmel. The issue with him is the bar Drago sets, as Scraggle said. But the main issue? Grimmel is villainous, but he never goes the extra mile. When given a choice, Drago always goes for the worst villain choice he possibly can. The greatest amount of bodies, the most sadistic cruelty....Grimmel doesn't. He's usually satisfied with generic villainy.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#154077: Mar 11th 2019 at 5:42:28 PM

Yes to Ekimmu, but no to Grimmel.

Also it might take me a bit to do the Darkwing Duck comics.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#154079: Mar 11th 2019 at 5:46:06 PM

Honestly, I think I'll give a [tup] to Grimmel. Drago is more Personally Cruel, at the same Grimmels Genocidal intentions assist him at being a very Differant type of villain then Drago(Simmular to Comparing Arkhamverse!Penguin to the Joker or Scarecrow or Hugo strange) And the Recourses thing Demon brought up awhile back also help his case, there's also the fact his Genocide of the Night Furies makes him a very Important Foe In-Universe If he only had one of these facts it would help but might not be QUITE enough(Recourses isn't a get on the trope free thing as discussed before) but seeing as Grimmel has all of those, I'll give him a yes.

Edited by Kylotrope on Mar 11th 2019 at 5:48:06 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#154080: Mar 11th 2019 at 5:53:11 PM

Not gonna lie, I WANT Grimmel to count, but considering that Drago is MUCH more heinous than Grimmel, i’m Afraid i’m have to give an [tdown] as well.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#154081: Mar 11th 2019 at 5:55:12 PM

Oh, also, Michael, go for it with those Hero Factory ones, both of them. One doesn't necessarily have to have "destroy the world" as their explicit end goal—willingly allowing an apocalyptic event happen as collateral is, I think, just as nasty. The Son of Hell counts even more with it, given his rule is nominally "take over the world" with millions he's already planning to purge, but the "collateral" will result in the death of all humanity and he refuses to see that.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#154082: Mar 11th 2019 at 5:57:58 PM

Hell we have Dr.Gross who didn't find out about the Consequences of her actions til after they happned, but also didn't care. So the Hero Factory guy should have no issue.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#154083: Mar 11th 2019 at 6:02:01 PM

Exactly. Accidental genocide is still genocide and the perpetrator not giving a shit makes them just as culpable as if they were actively seeking it out. It's easily one of the most horrible forms of "passive" evil there is.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#154084: Mar 11th 2019 at 6:03:15 PM

[tdown] to Grimmel. From the sound of it Drago Bludvist is much worse.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#154085: Mar 11th 2019 at 6:04:10 PM

[tdown]Grimmel.

Why so serious?
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#154086: Mar 11th 2019 at 6:06:43 PM

Nay on Grimmel.

Quick question... If a series ended up in Episode 23 despite having 25 episodes. Considering Episode 23 is the end of the main story of this work as for now and the next 2 episodes will be OV As or something tying into the series despite having a different character POV... Should we discuss it two weeks after the end of Episode 23 as this is the point where the main story ended for now or two weeks after the end of Episode 25?

Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Mar 11th 2019 at 8:07:40 PM

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#154087: Mar 11th 2019 at 6:09:27 PM

Weak [tup] Grimmel. I think that the fact that dragon's are close to, if not actually sapient (toothless, at least to me is sapient) makes his killing of the nightfuries as well as the dragon babies enough to count. (I haven't seen the film my self if anyone is wondering).

Devoted2Nintendo Since: Jul, 2018
#154088: Mar 11th 2019 at 6:10:53 PM

Ah, it looks like the moment I've been waiting for has finally arrived... and what's my opinion? Well, I think Scraggle put it about as clearly as it could be put, and honestly, this is a case where I can easily see both sides of the argument. That said, I'm still going with a mild [tup] to Grimmel for the reasons I gave on Friday morning. Yes, he stood out less than I expected, but between attempted genocide (even if it is offscreen, but let's face it, they would never actually show that onscreen in this kind of movie), the nasty abuse towards his creatures, and showing he can be just as ruthless to humans if they get in his way, namely trying to have his Deathgrippers burn them alive, I think he stands out just as much in his own right as Drago.

Of course, my standards for what constitutes this trope has always been comparably looser than others that use this forum, so in a way, it's a given that I'm going to lean towards "yes" on a villain with only fairly minor issues with heinousness and not a lick of a redeeming quality to his name. I can't speak for the show since I've barely seen any of it, but he still ultimately stands out as a very dark and dangerous villain for the setting of this trilogy, even if he didn't quite live up to the hype of being the series' most dark and dangerous villain to date.

Edited by Devoted2Nintendo on Mar 11th 2019 at 9:19:56 AM

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#154089: Mar 11th 2019 at 6:12:26 PM

Alright, after giving it some thought? I lean towards a yes to Grimmel. Is Drago more personal of a villain? Yeah. Could Grimmel have been worse? Admittedly, yeah. I definitely think both sides have merits, but I honestly think that Grimmel does enough to count. Even if he has room to be worse, he's still awful due to his genocide and abuse of sapient creatures. Honestly, I think he manages to be distinct enough from Drago in his awfulness for me to feel that they're capable of standing out as examples of truly extreme evil in this series without treading on each other's toes: Drago is a warlord, and as such is brutal and murderous to the extreme. However, he seeks to conquer and subjugate while Grimmel is a genocidal poacher who has still driven a sapient species to near extinction, and his treatment of his Deathgrippers as well as the baby dragons that are fed to them is just as awful as Drago's enslavement of his Bewilderbeast in my opinion. So yeah, I truly do believe that Grimmel just does enough to cinch it, but again, I can see where people who don't agree stand from and respect their opinions.

Edited by FriedWarthog on Mar 11th 2019 at 6:13:29 AM

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#154090: Mar 11th 2019 at 6:16:39 PM

Thought about it... Changing my vote to abstain.

Also, anyone wanted to answer my question regarding the work that I reserved?

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#154091: Mar 11th 2019 at 6:22:02 PM

I think that if any potential keeper's are clearly not going to show up in the last two episodes then it's ok to wait until two week after the 23rd episode. We discussed Adam Taurus only 1 week after the end of the Volume since he died in the penultimate episode.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#154092: Mar 11th 2019 at 6:22:49 PM

@Elfen Personally I think it's fine to Discuss now if that's the case.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#154093: Mar 11th 2019 at 6:25:04 PM

I'm gonna abstain on Grimmel. Same as my initial thoughts when I first saw the movie.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#154094: Mar 11th 2019 at 6:25:27 PM

@papyru @Kylo I'll note that thank you.

And for those who don't know the work that I'm referring to... It's That Time I Got Reincarnated As A Slime. I just recently finished the 23rd Episode and this episode is basically where the anime story ended. If you feel comfortable with me discussing Slime two weeks after 23rd Episode, PM me for discussions on who counts or not smile

Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Mar 11th 2019 at 8:27:13 PM

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#154095: Mar 11th 2019 at 6:26:14 PM

Abstaining on Grimmel then.

Leaning towards a [tup] there due to the whole baby thing.

Edited by AustinDR on Mar 11th 2019 at 6:34:24 AM

Devoted2Nintendo Since: Jul, 2018
#154096: Mar 11th 2019 at 6:30:43 PM

@Fried Warthog I'm glad someone else pointed out that his abuse of his Deathgrippers and the baby dragons he feeds to them are just as bad as Drago's treatment towards his Bewilderbeest. If anything, that's a perfect example of what I'm talking about; ultimately, while it's handled in a way that makes it less explicit, Grimmel is just as bad, and if there's any real difference between them other than their exact priorities, it's that Drago is more of a low-functioning psychopath who's practically incapable of showing any real restraint in his actions, while Grimmel is a higher-functioning one who carries himself with more strategy and discipline, as Scraggle essentially pointed out.

Also, while I'm pretty sure this won't necessarily change anyone's mind, there's one other thing worth pointing out that makes this analogy all the more credible; remember how Drago actually had a chance to completely wipe of the dragon riders if we wanted to when he took control of the dragons, leaving them almost helpless, but instead went straight to Berk to conquer it? To me, this proves very strongly that he's low-functioning, since a smarter and more disciplined strategist like Grimmel probably wouldn't have missed that type of opportunity. Even more importantly though, it also proves that Drago has his own disadvantages when it comes to the concept of "seizing every possible opportunity to take the worst and most merciless course of action", if you really want to nitpick about that.

Anyway, I'm sorry if anyone thinks that's not especially helpful, but since one of the main arguments against Grimmel's inclusion is that Drago seizes every possible opportunity to be as awful as he can be, we might as well consider every little thing that relates to that point.

Edited by Devoted2Nintendo on Mar 11th 2019 at 9:35:45 AM

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#154097: Mar 11th 2019 at 6:32:49 PM

...on second thought feeding babies to their own race that one is enslaving is kinda fucked up so count me as a [tup] Grimmel.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#154098: Mar 11th 2019 at 6:33:38 PM

The issue for me...Grimmel has chances to be worse and doesn't take them. I mean, in the long run...people have brought up the acid. Is that really so much worse than mass immolation of the viking chieftains in Stoick's backstory?

AgeOfTropeEmpire Handsome Head of Hyperion Since: Nov, 2018
Handsome Head of Hyperion
#154099: Mar 11th 2019 at 6:40:13 PM

With plenty of time to think, I'm gonna give Grimmel a [tup]. No he's not as bad as Drago, but between his lesser resources, his explicit goal of dragon genocide in the long run, and the fact that he does feed baby dragons to his Deathsnatchers, something very unique for the entire franchise, he just counts for me. It is the fact that Grimmel has entirely different goals and methods, and that with what time he has he commits plenty of crimes, that does it for me.

Devoted2Nintendo Since: Jul, 2018
#154100: Mar 11th 2019 at 6:43:35 PM

[up][up] I wouldn't say killing the dragon riders with his Deathgrippers' acid is worse than Drago having his dragons burn the chieftains' alive, but I would say it's on part with it. The only difference is that in Grimmel's case, it was simply unsuccessful. As for him not taking chances to be worse... honestly, I still don't get quite that. The main example of this argument that keeps coming up is that he threatened the people of Berk and tricked them into leaving their home instead of using outright force, but despite already succeeding in setting part of it ablaze, I remember him saying in his conversation with the warlords afterwards that they'd played right into his hands by leaving the place where they were best protected. When you consider that statement, maybe he simply wasn't especially confident that he would be successful if he tried an all-out assault? So again, he seems like he's holding back strictly or strategic purposes, but not necessarily because he's less ruthless than Drago, at least in my opinion.

Actually, come to think of it, the implication about feeding baby dragons to his Deathgrippers was something I actually overlooked too, so yeah, that only strengthens my conviction that he still does enough for the trope.

Edited by Devoted2Nintendo on Mar 11th 2019 at 9:49:53 AM


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