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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

AgeOfTropeEmpire Handsome Head of Hyperion Since: Nov, 2018
Handsome Head of Hyperion
#154051: Mar 11th 2019 at 4:37:25 PM

@ACW: I like the Joker pic. As for Emperor Joker, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't really recall a Pet the Dog regarding Quinn. Sure he turned her into a constellation, but she was still going to die when he wiped out the entire universe, he outright says something like "For all your years of service you get the front row seat to Armageddon, say goodnight Harley!" like mocking her, and she's obviously disapproving of her new position as an unmoving constellation. I suppose it could be a Pet the Dog but I never personally saw it, it seemed more like he made her think she was getting a legitimate reward (like sparing her life) and instead just turned her into a bundle of stars to sit and watch until the universe exploded.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#154052: Mar 11th 2019 at 4:44:10 PM

Yes to the candidates I missed and eh... I'm gonna say keep him or leave him on the NA List... I'm indifferent either way.

Anyways, while we still on a controversial debate on quotes... Will this quote matched on the "absolute" and "vile" criteria?

"Mr. Kaneki, there's something I like even more than reading. Know what it is? It's pulling out all the organs of someone who isn't trying to run away from me. That expression! It's fantastic! Would you let me... thrill myself EVEN MORE?!"—

Rize Kamishiro, after biting Ken Kaneki and trying to kill him

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#154053: Mar 11th 2019 at 4:48:19 PM

Mmm...can't really say that I like it. Leaning towards a "yes."

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#154055: Mar 11th 2019 at 4:56:49 PM

[tup] Scarlet and the first two Black Mask images. I think that quote can probably work.

And I don't agree with adding Joffrey to the Never Again list. He hasn't been a persistent problem and we should only add extreme examples. Sometimes I feel as if some of us want to add to the NA list whenever anyone contests an example, even if the character hasn't come up a lot. It can seem a little aggressive if someone brings something up in good faith and immediately people jump to "Put it on the Never Again list and never speak of it again."

Edited by TommyFresh on Mar 11th 2019 at 4:57:58 AM

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#154056: Mar 11th 2019 at 4:57:47 PM

[up] This comment describes my feeling [awesome][awesome]

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#154057: Mar 11th 2019 at 5:08:22 PM

I doubt it's "aggressive." When a problem is resolved, I'm for nipping it in the butt before it gets out of hand.

Any other thoughts on Elfen's quote?

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#154058: Mar 11th 2019 at 5:11:20 PM

[tup] to the Quote.

I'm with Tommy on this, Agressive isn't quiet the word I'd use though. I think Perhaps we should Establish a rule or Basline as far as adding something to the NA list goes. For example "X got brought up 7 times under a year".

Edited by Kylotrope on Mar 11th 2019 at 5:13:06 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#154059: Mar 11th 2019 at 5:12:51 PM

It's more a precaution than being aggressive.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#154060: Mar 11th 2019 at 5:14:26 PM

I was thinking about looking into the Boom Studios Darkwing Duck comics. If no minds or has it already been brought up?

Edited by Bullman on Mar 11th 2019 at 7:14:58 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#154062: Mar 11th 2019 at 5:15:40 PM

Go ahead says I.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#154063: Mar 11th 2019 at 5:15:57 PM

Age: From the trope page, I get the impression he was sincere. It's even at HeartWarming.Emperor Joker. Plus he's at WoobieDestroyerOfWorlds.Comic Books.

If he DOES count, he can probably get his own writeup on the work's YMMV page, and there's this image. I've actually read Killing Joke, and that's still a firm no.

Anyone else read Emperor Joker and willing to give input?

Zaigorg goes after Gargorgon, right? Will that other candidate be getting effortposted?

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#154064: Mar 11th 2019 at 5:15:58 PM

I remember that 32 Footsteps proposed the comic book version of Negaduck pages ago. Nothing much came of it.

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#154065: Mar 11th 2019 at 5:19:54 PM

Aggressive probably wasn't the right word, but I think it is an unnecessary precaution. I don't even remember the last time Joffrey came up so when a single person brings him up I think we can just address their argument instead of banning the topic. Like, they haven't indicated an unwillingness to accept the consensus so why bring up the NA list?

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#154066: Mar 11th 2019 at 5:20:19 PM

Okay that’s 9 [tup] to Mendoza. Fitting as horrible as he was, he was also probably the shows most entertaining villain.

Now as for my third Blood Ties we move onto the candidate that I’m the least confident about them passing, but are still worth talking about.

Now Vicki is approached by one of her former colleagues, Paul “Dirty” Deed’s an undercover cop, who just has a slight problem, he’s now a ghost (who only Vicki) can see, but can’t remember how he died, so he wants her to find her body.

Unfortunately something far more sinister lurks at the heart of this mystery, I give you the Ekimmu.

Who is It:

The Ekimmu is an ancient Babylonian entity. The main antagonist of "D.O.A." It’s a spirit which for whatever reason cannot pass on into the afterlife. For some reason this means it resembles a two foot long fleshy eel like creature with plant like tendrils, and devours raw meat.

A Possessing entity, the Ekimmu can take over the bodies of people; it’s required to pass into the opposite gender of its previous victim and requires intimacy between it and its next victim before it can transfer.

It burns through its victims’ bodies, causing severe cellular damage until it abandons them to die.

What Does He Do:

Nothing is revealed about this particularl Ekimmu’s real identity or how long it’s been in existence for.

The earliest about Ekimmu that we know about was when it possessed an employed man called Bert Winters. Burning through him, it took the body of a prostitute it hired called Mary Wallace, then after her it seduced low life Derek Pheasant and finally passed onto his girlfriend, a woman called Tessa Bradley.

Two days later it abandoning Tessa who just as time to get back to her seat before keeling over dead. Now taking over Pauls body forcing his soul out (what happened to the souls of its other victims aren’t revealed, but it can presume they just passed on when the Ekimmu abandoned their bodies). As Paul is an undercover cop with the criminal biker gang the Wolverine’s, and has in the past sold information to Chuntoa Fang, the leader of rival gang the Dragons, who are advancing on the Wolverine’s territory, it senses an opportunity.

Attacking the Wolverine’s, stealing a drug shipment, firebombing one of their clubhouses and murdering a member on Fang’s behalf (all this is off screen), it works to weaken them to help the Dragons can take over their territory, all the while keeping up Paul’s act of being a loyal member.

Mike has it picked up under the pretence of looking for insights about the murdered Wolverine, the Ekimmu tries to draw them off the sent by pointing at a different rival gang, and upon running into Vicki continues plays along unaware she's already met the real Paul's spirit.

Afterwards it sneaks into the police records and steals most of the information from Fang’s file, bumping into Henry and Vicki again at the coroner’s office. It subtly starts antagonising Vicki before leaving.

Meeting up with Fang, it tries to come on to her; she rebuffs it as she had already paid Paul. However, he manages to please her by giving her the stolen file. She then challenges him to do something more impressive before she becomes forthcoming.

In response the Ekimmu drives back to the Wolverine’s base and is cheerfully greeted by two members, it lures them over then whipping out an Uzi murders them on the spot, clearly enjoying itself.

The next night whilst Vicki is researching the missing files, the Ekimmu catches her. Vicki calls it out for its actions, but the Ekimmu deciding she could be fun tries to possess her. Vicki however, knee’s it in the groin breaking the connection and it flees.

Going back to its original plan, it meets up with Fang who is impressed by the murders it caused. As the two kiss, the Ekimmu starts forcing itself onto her holding her in place when she tries to resist, then emerging from Paul starts to crawl down Fang’s throat.

However, Henry grabs Paul’s body from behind and manages to pull them apart, throwing the Ekimmu onto the ground. Vicki stabs it with a Cedar Stake, destroying it and Paul’s spirit retakes his body. But it’s too late, the damage is too severe already and he dies right before them.

Freudian Excuse or Redeeming traits:

Now the thing that initially made me weary about the Ekimmu is that Henry states the mythology describes its notorious for chaos and violence, and that it is always angry and hungry due to its nature (hence it eating raw meat).

However, at no point in the episode does the Ekimmu ever display impaired agency or inability of choice (even the claim its always angry seems an exaggeration, as its clearly calm or happy at several points in the episode). Despite its transformation it is still effectively a ghost (which in show have agency and generally acts the same as when they were alive).

It’s fully capable of intelligent planning (such as it advancing Fang’s power, so it will have more when it takes her body), self-control and is likewise capable of almost perfectly impersonating the people whose bodies it stolen, as no one noticed any difference in Paul when it didn’t want them to.

Overall it just really enjoys causing violence and mayhem, even admitting so right before it tries to possess Fang.

Now there is the issue that it’s barred from passing on (exactly why is never explained) but really it doesn’t seem to have a problem with this, Vicki flat out describes it as acting like “a tourist at an all you can eat buffet.”

Heinous Standard:

With six onscreen victims (we only see photos of Mary and Derek though), and two off-screen the Ekimmu has the shows second highest body count. That it kills the majority of its victims by burning out their bodies is just icing on the cake.

Conclusion:

Despite easing some of my worries, as I said this is probably the candidate that I’m the least certain off. Compared to the other candidates, the Ekimmu has pretty small scale goals, but it’s a sadistic entity that clearly delights in causing chaos, so I would say it’s worth talking about.

Still what are your thoughts?

Edited by MGD107 on Mar 11th 2019 at 5:37:00 AM

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#154067: Mar 11th 2019 at 5:21:43 PM

Sure to Ekimmu

Anyways, anyone wanted to judge in my quote?

I'm still agreeing on Tommy regarding NA List actually

Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Mar 11th 2019 at 7:22:04 PM

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#154069: Mar 11th 2019 at 5:22:07 PM

I don't think the NA list should be used as a Precaution to a problem. Rather a solution for when it becomes a problem. By its very nature it is when something has become a frequent issue It shouldn't be used as "This might be an issue in the future so let's add" Instead it should be used as "This has become a major issue so let's add it to finish it". And I also agree with What Tommy said above as well. About just adressing the Tropers Quesiton instead of banning the Topic all together, especially if there not really going against the Consensus. I mean, the Search bar has been shown to be Inefficient at times.

[up][tup] to Ekkimu.

Edited by Kylotrope on Mar 11th 2019 at 5:27:46 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#154070: Mar 11th 2019 at 5:24:01 PM

[tup]Ekimmu

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Godzillawolf Since: Jul, 2010
#154071: Mar 11th 2019 at 5:25:12 PM

[up]Zaigorg goes after, yes, as his movie after the end of the series.

And yes, I plan to do Greeza, but he'll require more rewatching of episodes, as every instance of Dark Thunder Energy is his doing.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#154075: Mar 11th 2019 at 5:36:36 PM

So, stuff's off my agenda now, so I should be back to a usual rate of activity... starting with an effortpost or two.

Anyways, consensus was this guy was worth a full EP, so here we go:

What's the setting?

How to Train Your Dragon: The Hidden World is the last of Dreamworks' Dragons trilogy and presumably our big finale. A year after Drago's defeat (yeah, he... kinda just dropped off the Earth, and making it weird is that his Alpha is seen again but he isn't) Berk seems poised to become a sanctuary for both humans and dragons, a utopia of which the world has never before seen. Problem is? It's getting overly cluttered, and worse yet is that dragon hunters who refuse the idea of peace between the species are making Berk a target of theirs, leading to a big quest to evacuate Berk and find a place where the dragons can live hidden away from those who would do them harm: the mythical Hidden World.

Our Big Bad is Grimmel the Grisly. A quick recap of his actions...

Who is Grimmel? What has he done?

One of the most feared and notorious dragon hunters ever, Grimmel the Grisly is a Lean and Mean predator who introduces himself gunning down a charging dragon without breaking a sweat, a hunter who loves to get inside his targets' minds and bend them to his will before he closes in for the kill. When he was a lad, Grimmel was faced with the same scenario Hiccup was; he found a vulnerable Night Fury. Grimmel killed it, and he was hailed as a hero for this action, so Grimmel has dedicated his life to wiping them out in earnest for the thrill and the pride of it. By the time of the present day? The Night Furies have been all but wiped out, with Toothless seemingly the last of his kind—until Grimmel learns his warlord allies have a female he can use as bait to get to Toothless.

After his first attempt to catch Toothless fails, Grimmel barges into Hiccup's house and torches it, telling him and his friends to relinquish Toothless—or everything Hiccup loves will be destroyed. Goading the Berkians into evacuating their ancestral home, Grimmel starts to play a series of escalating games of subterfuge, tracking them down to find Toothless. The heroes' first attempt to capture Grimmel ends with them locked in his trap. Grimmel introduces the heroes to his six Deathgrippers, terrifying dragons he keeps as drugged slaves (and well-fed with other baby dragons, as Ruffnut sees one squealing hatchling Grimmel's keeping for the Deathgrippers' "dinner") and tries to burn Hiccup and his allies alive, ultimately managing to track them down afterwards by having Ruffnut lead him right to them.

In the climax, Grimmel forces Toothless to call the entirety of Berk's dragons into his clutches so he can butcher them all, threatening to kill the Light Fury in front of him if he doesn't, and prepares to ship them all away in cages, even betraying his warlord allies, trying to kill Toothless so he can complete his genocide of the Night Furies. A pitched battle ensues, and Grimmel's fleet is eventually wiped out as the dragons fight back, with Grimmel trying to get away on the back of the Night Fury. Ultimately, Hiccup tackles him off the Light Fury, the same time Grimmel darts Toothless and sends him falling out of the sky, berating Hiccup to his last breath for prioritizing the life of a dragon over his own... the Light Fury, thankfully, plucks Hiccup out of the sky in the nick of time, leaving Grimmel to fall into the water to his death instead.

Any mitigating factors?

Grimmel has no real redeeming qualities to speak of. There isn't a move of his he does that isn't born out of a sense of pragmatism or strategy (like letting Ruffnut go with the baby dragon, so he can follow her back to Berk and take all the dragons).

The issue lies, as stated before, in the heinous standard. Keeping the TV series at bay for now given that I've mentioned Word of God establishes the link between the movies and series as tenuous, let's compare Grimmel with his immediate predecessor and qualifier, Drago Bludvist.

Pros for Grimmel's favor? Grimmel's main claim to fame is his outright genocide of the Night Fury species. I'm not worried about this being Offscreen Villainy since we have plenty of evidence demonstrating that the Night Furies are insanely rare in this world, and now we know why. Drago settled on brainwashing the dragons; Grimmel simply wants to slaughter them. There's other little tidbits that help to bring him up, too, like his treatment of his Deathgrippers and notes on how he feeds them, and the attempt to kill all of Berk's dragons at the end which gives him a respectable attempted body count. The dragons are demonstrably sapient entities, as emotionally complex and conflicted as the Berkians themselves, so this is a step beyond typical "evil poacher" behavior. Adding to that, it's a fair point Grimmel doesn't really have the room Drago has to act on... his Deathgrippers are powerful, and his connections to the warlords gives him a powerful fleet, but Drago has a Bewilderbeast that allows him to almost instantly enslave every single dragon in Valka's sanctuary, whereas Grimmel is forced to point and threaten to force Toothless' compliance in anything, a tactic that quickly falls short.

Now, with that said, Grimmel's main problem is thus; too much of his onscreen villainy relies on deception and threat as opposed to Drago Bludvist's force and immensely personal atrocity. When Grimmel has a chance to be evil, he makes the threat, and they're threats that—while indicated he'd be willing to follow through with—aren't ones he ever really capitalizes on in the film's screentime. He says he'll destroy Berk if Hiccup doesn't turn over Toothless; that's to provoke the Berkians into fleeing so he has an easy shot at their dragons. He says he'll kill the Light Fury, but settles with trying to escape on her when Toothless actually fights back. He has zero interest in helping the warlords' aspiring conquest so he can instead settle on trying to complete his Night Fury genocide, which... while petty, doesn't really compare to Drago's master plan of "enslave all the dragons and take over the entire world with them."

The main sticking point, I think... when Drago has a chance to be evil, he capitalizes on it. He goes all-out with it; he has twice the onscreen body count Grimmel ever manages to wrack up, goes to lengths Grimmel never does with spiteful, awful personal touches. Grimmel doesn't brainwash the hero's own dragon into murdering his father, Grimmel doesn't ever get to actually razing Berk, Grimmel doesn't have a human body count period or even attempt much of one beyond "trying to kill the heroes." Drago has both the personal villainy and the scale to compound it, with his actions leaving consequences on the setting and the actual lives of the characters Grimmel never goes, despite Grimmel being hyped up as Hiccup's worst foe yet. Tellingly? Drago would still count on his own in the TV series, even with characters like Dagur, Viggo, and Johann running around. Grimmel? Would instantly fail next to Viggo and it's an uphill battle against the others. Even compared just against Drago, Drago is so freaking bad and takes so many chances to see it that Grimmel's onscreen presence and atrocities are left wanting, with only a few arguments you could really make to justify him really standing out as much as Drago.

Conclusion?

I've laid out and elaborated on both sides of argument as clearly as I can, I think. Honestly, writing this effortpost, I think I'm even more convinced that Grimmel doesn't really clinch it. He'd likely qualify on his own and I can see the differing opinions, but in my opinion? Drago is just too high a bar to clear and he falls short, if just short. Ultimately, I'll let the thread decide as is the purpose of the full effortpost, but you can count me as a "no."

Thoughts?

Edited by Scraggle on Mar 11th 2019 at 6:40:32 AM


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