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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#150051: Feb 16th 2019 at 7:57:30 PM

Most shocking moment for me? Supernatural Lucifer going back up.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#150052: Feb 16th 2019 at 7:58:02 PM

The most shocking momment for me is when a alternate universe version of Tommy Oliver counted. Though Drakkon is a great villain.

Edited by Bullman on Feb 16th 2019 at 11:03:27 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#150053: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:03:07 PM

Bullman, why exactly did you delete your agreement that we should be vetting the quotes? This is a legit issue we shouldn't be brushing off, now that we've actually brought it up.

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#150054: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:03:14 PM

A couple of quotes I added in a long time ago, on reflection, I'm not sure if they are clear enough without context.

The gods of Amonkhet roared and cursed, but no blow from their weapons would land. The trespasser's power was at least equal to their own. The dragon landed atop the tallest tower, closed his eyes, and began to channel a spell. The time for violent choices had come. The gods felt a surge of mana weave around the dragon as a tangle of malevolence. They grasped desperately for spells to protect and defend. But they were too slow. The dragon opened his eyes and every mortal old enough to walk dissipated into the sky. A brilliant white light engulfed Naktamun, and the seven gods fell to their knees in agony as countless souls vanished from existence.

Nicol Bolas conquers the plane of Amonkhet in a single moment, Magic: The Gathering

Jododu Otoku: Little creature, my body sleeps but my mind is awake. This world is my world. It floats in an ocean filled with great stones, and it is only my divine will that keeps them from striking us. Without me, life cannot exist here.
[Bandos ignores the voice. He raises the pike higher for a single, devastating thrust.]
Jododu Otoku: Little creature, you do not know what you are doing. If you kill me, you kill every living thing on this planet. They will all die. You will be alone on this world.
Bandos (smiling): Old god, I know exactly what I am doing. [He strikes.] And there will be other worlds!

Bandos becomes a Physical God and an Omnicidal Maniac with one action, RuneScape

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#150055: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:05:03 PM

I'm inclined to agree with Scraggle. Lock the page, bring people here and let's go through some of these.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#150056: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:05:12 PM

[up][up] Yeah, see, those are two I'd point to as "villain does something evil" without necessarily fulfilling why they count outside of context.

Edited by Scraggle on Feb 16th 2019 at 9:05:28 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#150057: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:06:31 PM

[up][up][up][up] Because I realized I already I agreed on the previous page. But I do agree with you wholeheartedly on it. I won't do it again. I just didn't want to feel like I was repeating myself.

[down] No problem. I should have put an explanation when I changed the post, my bad.

Edited by Bullman on Feb 16th 2019 at 11:10:35 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#150058: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:06:51 PM

Ahh. I didn't see that, my mistake.

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#150059: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:10:33 PM

In full agreement of locking the quotes page and combing through it.

Most surprising moment? When I found out we had a candidate from Rainbow Brite.

Edited by erazor0707 on Feb 16th 2019 at 8:10:52 AM

finalsurvivor1 Since: Jan, 2012
#150060: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:15:59 PM

Count Chocula having a serious CM incarnation was quite something. I remember that I upvoted him despite usually staying out of unfamiliar territory because he was a clear keep and I wanted to be on record for having helped add a cereal mascot as a CM.

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#150061: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:17:38 PM

For me, most surprising moment of the thread's also a fairly recent one. There being keepers in a Rick and Morty comic.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#150062: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:18:09 PM

So, looking at Western Animation:

"She spied on our lives through the little doll's eyes, and saw that we weren't happy. So she lured us away with treasures and treats, and games to play, gave all that we asked. Yet we still wanted more, so we let her sew the buttons. She said she loved us; but she locked us here. And ate up our lives."
—-Ghost Boy on the Beldam, Coraline

With that one, I feel it could probably be better suited under Bitch in Sheep's Clothing.


"Yes, yes my soldiers. Soon the Black Cauldron will be mine. Its evil power will course through my veins... and I shall make you... Cauldron-born. Yes, oh yes. Then, you will worship me! Me... oh, my soldiers, how long I have thirsted to be a god among mortal men."
—-The Horned King, The Black Cauldron

More better under A God Am I.


"NOW, TEN THOUSAND YEARS OF DARKNESS BEGINS!"
—- Unalaq/Vaatu, The Legend of Korra'', "Darkness Falls"

Lacks context.

Edited by AustinDR on Feb 16th 2019 at 8:19:05 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#150063: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:20:28 PM

I thought the quote page was locked, why isn't it already?

Before we start proposing quotes to cut, let's come to an agreement on what does count as a quote.

Edited by papyru30 on Feb 16th 2019 at 9:29:13 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#150064: Feb 16th 2019 at 8:38:28 PM

[tup]Darkseid

Before we lockthe quotes page. Let's clean it up first. So im aren't great Thu and I've tried before to remove a few but it down go anywhere.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#150065: Feb 16th 2019 at 9:17:37 PM

For Madeline, if someone can crop this◊, we can get it without the text, and use the text as the caption: "Sometimes true evil does take flesh and walk the Earth."

How is this?

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#150067: Feb 16th 2019 at 9:36:29 PM

Alrighty, I'm sure Master Xehanort getting cut from this trope earlier this week stung for many of us. Probably still does, probably always will. But I realized that a ray of hope existed in something that had gone untouched - the Kingdom Hearts manga series, drawn and written by Shiro Amano. This manga adapted Kingdom Hearts 1, Chain of Memories, 358/2 Days, and Kingdom Hearts II before being discontinued back in 2015. Meaning that Birth By Sleep and onward do not factor into this adaptation's version of the story and characters aside from some vague backstory hints here and there. Meaning there's a Xehanort in this series, but no Master Xehanort in sight. The Xehanort who is featured here (the amnesiac Terra-Xehanort) comes in two incarnations - his Heartless and his Nobody. And the first of those is who I'm Effort Posting for right here and now.

What's the setting? - The manga adaptation of the original ''KingdomHearts'' is set in the same universe that the games are set in - where the universe, or World (the capital W is important), is home to several different sub-worlds that co-exist with each other without knowing of one another's existence...or so it was before the Heartless, under guidance from Maleficent and her cartel of villains, started invading the galaxy, tearing down the unseen walls between worlds with their dark power, and consuming hearts, both of people and of worlds, the latter of which are found within the world's Keyholes. As the Heartless eat up worlds one by one, Maleficent and her co-conspirators also search for the Princesses of Heart, seven maidens whose hearts hold the purest light and can thus, if gathered together, open the Final Keyhole to the Door to Darkness, behind which lies Kingdom Hearts, the Heart of All Worlds. However, the true mastermind behind the invading Heartless and the villains who seek to capture the Princesses is not Maleficent - it's Ansem, Seeker Of Darkness.

Who is Ansem, Seeker Of Darkness? What has he done? - Ansem is actually the Heartless of Xehanort, foremost apprentice researcher to Ansem the Wise, who himself was a researcher and ruler of his own world, the Radiant Garden/Hollow Bastion, who was renowned as a sage. The backstory of Xehanort, who in the games was revealed to be an amnesiac Master Xehanort walking around in the body of Terra whom he'd possessed earlier, is never divulged in the manga adaptation, though a line of dialogue from Xigbar in the Kingdom Hearts II manga hints that the events of Birth By Sleep still occurred in this continuity, meaning that this character still could be interpreted as being what became of Master Xehanort. As Ansem's apprentice, Xehanort opened the door to his world and let more Heartless in, secretly resumed research and experiments that Ansem had bade him cease, sent the child Kairi away to another world knowing that her special heart would lead her to a future Keyblade Bearer (which is how she ended up on Destiny Islands), eventually banished his mentor/father figure Ansem to the Realm of Darkness while also stealing his name and his research for himself, struck down his five co-conspirators in order to turn them into Heartless (creating Nobodies in the process), cast off his own body in order to plunge his heart into the deepest darkness and become a Heartless himself, and allowed the Heartless to reduce his world to ruination, which is the state it's in when Maleficent and her followers arrive and take over the castle.

Now a formless Heartless shrouded in a brown cloak, Ansem is implied to have stayed around as a lurker in his own former home castle, nudging Maleficent along in her plan to capture all seven Princesses of Heart so that their hearts joined together could open the Keyhole to Darkness, which could get Maleficent to Kingdom Hearts and the power within it that she could use to rule the World. In truth, Ansem was awaiting the moment where he could regain physical form, dispose of Maleficent once her purpose had been served, and enter through the Final Keyhole so that he could find the Door to Darkness and lead the Heartless he commanded in their consummation of the Heart of All Worlds that lied behind it. We first see Ansem in the same place and the same event where we first see him in the games - he appears in the Secret Place on Destiny Islands, giving Sora cryptic words about how the world has been "connected" and is "soon to be completely eclipsed", also telling Sora that he knows nothing and can thus understand nothing before vanishing without a trace. It's when he resurfaces at Hollow Bastion much later into the story that we get to the big cases of Adaptational Villainy.

For starters, in the game when he approaches Riku in the Castle Chapel, he coaxes him by telling him that while his heart at the time was not strong or true enough to wield a Keyblade, he can become stronger by plunging himself into the deepest darkness, letting his very being become darkness himself, all while bringing Riku's fullest darkness out of his heart so that he can possess him. Riku even addresses him twice in the scene ("What? You're saying my heart is weaker than his?" and "What should I do?") In the manga, Ansem doesn't even bother trying to have any actual exchange with Riku - he just walks up to him, remarking about how bold he was to endure the darkness back on his island home to begin with and shouting at him to take his dark power further by fully embracing the darkness, by embracing him. Riku is clearly confused and terrified the whole while. So Ansem has basically just Mind Rapes Riku into submission so that he could then possess his body forcibly, without any manipulation for any semblance of consent from Riku whatsoever.

Then when he, now in Riku's body, approaches Maleficent in the Grand Hall and reveals his new Keyblade to her, which he made from the 6 captive Princesses extracted hearts, he tells her that once the Final Keyhole is opened, Heartless will come through the flood of darkness and overrun the world. Maleficent boasts that this does not concern her, for she holds power over darkness rather than the other way around. Ansem then basically goes "Oh really? Shall we test that?" and stabs Maleficent with his Keyblade. In the game, he doesn't perform this action until after Maleficent has been weakened in battle with Sora, Donald, and Goofy, and his expressed reason for doing so is to help her awaken the fullest darkness locked in her heart so that she could transform into her dragon form and yet triumph over her foes. Sure, he expresses amusement at the irony of her having been a pawn all along after she's deceased, but he still wasn't looking to destroy her at that moment. In the manga, however, he stabs her just for kicks, and when the darkness in her heart devours her (yes, she doesn't turn into a dragon in this manga), he calls her weak and expresses devilish glee, as though he were anticipating that very result.

When Sora, Donald, and Goofy then arrive on the scene immediately following this, Ansem introduces himself as Ansem, Seeker of Darkness, making the heroes assume he's Ansem from the Reports (even though he's not - he's Xehanort's Heartless). He then reveals that the Final Keyhole will not open until the heart of the seventh Princess, Kairi, is set free from Sora's own heart, in which it has been residing this entire time. Now in the game, Ansem attempts to release the heart himself by striking Sora with his Keyblade only to be beaten back, which is followed by Sora using Ansem's Keyblade to pierce his own heart, setting free the 6 Princesses hearts from the Keyblade and Kairi's heart from inside of him, as a Heroic Sacrifice that results in him becoming a Heartless. But in the manga? It's Ansem himself who tells Sora that he can use Ansem's Keyblade, still lying there where Maleficent once stood, to unlock his heart and set Kairi free, vanishing after urging Sora to do this. So he deceives Sora into making what would be a Senseless Sacrifice because he knows full well that Sora will become a Heartless as a result of doing this, and that, as he told Maleficent earlier, a flood of Darkness and Heartless will emerge from the Final Keyhole once it's been completed by the release of all Seven Princesses' hearts, which could kill Donald, Goofy, and all the Princesses (Kairi included) anyway.

In fact, once Sora's body has vanished and his heart is falling into Darkness, and Kairi has come to, Kairi refuses to accept what's befallen Sora and stands defiant, prompting Ansem to re-appear, having now re-shaped Riku's body into a new form that resembles Ansem's former human self, and declare that since Kairi's purpose to his plan has been served, he will kill her personally. Like in the game, Ansem is halted by Riku's heart fighting back from within, refusing to let Ansem use his body to kill one of his dear friend, and warning Kairi, Donald, and Goofy about the Heartless coming from the Keyhole. Unlike in the game, the manga shows us what follows - Ansem mocks Riku for his efforts, raises a hand, and banishes Riku's heart from his body into total darkness, which takes Riku's heart to the Realm of Darkness. Ansem then looks at the oncoming darkness that threatens to tear apart Hollow Bastion with joy, remarking that it's time for all to return to darkness. The Beast makes it to the Grand Hall in time to see Ansem entering through the Keyhole, and as he does, he glances back at Beast with a smirk, as if saying "I dare you to pursue me and try to stop me now." Thankfully, Belle arrives before Beast can do so.

When Sora, Donald, and Goofy confront Ansem in End of the World, Ansem mocks Sora for worrying for the fate of Riku's heart while also mocking Riku for opening his heart to darkness without knowing that it would mean his heart would eventually return to darkness. Before going into his "Darkness is the heart's true essence" monologue, Ansem explains that he needed the seven Princesses captured by Maleficent and her cohorts because only the Princesses pure hearts of light can create the way to the Door to Darkness, behind which the Heart of All Worlds, Kingdom Hearts, can be found. Kingdom Hearts has been consummated behind the Door to Darkness, which has been materialized in the core of the Heartless' world, both as result of the Heartless devouring countless worlds' hearts. There is no hidden agenda to forge the X-Blade for Master Xehanort when he returns behind the Princesses capturing, as this manga was written before that misbegotten retcon reared it's ugly head. Ansem has done this for his own purpose - the purpose of drowning the World in eternal darkness. Ansem breaks Destiny Islands apart and sends everyone to the Endless Abyss, core of the Heartless' world, where he transforms into a monstrous Heartless form complete with a freaky looking battleship, the World Of Chaos. The final chapter begins with Ansem beckoning the Door to Darkness to come open and let out the power of Kingdom Hearts, which he believes to be made of darkness, to fill him up with SUPREME DARKNESS! But Sora tells him that he's wrong - no matter how deep the darkness that afflicts a heart, there is always a light that never goes out, which means that Kingdom Hearts, from which all hearts are born, must truly be light by nature. He's proven right as a blast out light bursts from the door, obliterating Ansem as he has a look of horror on his face, with his last thoughts being "Light? Why? Why is there light?" With Ansem gone, Riku's body is restored to him within the Realm of Darkness.

Ansem reappears only in the follow-up Chain Of Memories manga adaptation as a specter made from his darkness that still lingers in Riku's heart. The manga does away with the plot point of Diz (in truth the real Ansem the Wise) impersonating Ansem (in truth the Heartless of the false Ansem, Xehanort) in addition to the actual Ansem's spirit haunting Riku from within his heart, having the actual Ansem as the one who gives him the card to progress through Castle Oblivion. Aside from taunting Riku and trying to get him to embrace his darkness again, there's one point after Lexaeus has been killed where Ansem thinks to himself about how he is deliberately invoking emotions of fear, anger, sorrow, doubt, and regret in Riku because those emotions will strengthen him enough to eventually overtake Riku and gain a physical existence once more. Then in the final confrontation Riku has with Ansem, Ansem calls forth his Guardian Heartless and attempts to brutally strangle Riku, a 15 year old boy, in order to get his heart and body to succumb to darkness so that he may take Riku for himself once more. As Riku cuts Ansem down, Ansem declares that he will return, and so long as Riku's darkness is ruled by his dark thoughts and emotions, and as Riku continues to think of him, then he shall forever linger in his heart and never go away.

In the following two manga, we learn that Riku eventually exorcises Ansem from his heart, but only by immersing himself in all of his dark power, which allows him to take on the powers and physical appearance of Ansem himself. We also learn that Ansem wasn't truly Ansem, but was in fact Xehanort assuming the identity of Ansem.

Is he heinous enough? - He attempts to bring about a universal apocalypse and cast all hearts of all worlds and all individuals into eternal darkness by allowing his Heartless underlings to consume what's essentially Heaven in this universe, while also wanting to absorb it's power for himself under the belief that said power is the greatest darkness that is the creation and sustaining essence of all that exists, to say nothing of the personal, predatory villainy he displays towards Riku. No way he's not heinous enough. As the likes of Master Xehanort or the Master of Masters don't appear in the manga series, Xehanort's Heartless sets the heinous standard of this entire work, with only his Nobody Xemnas and his pawn Maleficent coming close to matching him in this regard.

Any mitigating factors? - While Ansem is a Heartless and Heartless are typically mindless followers of their instincts as beings of darkness, a point is made that Ansem is the first person known to have held on to his feelings, sentience, and identity even as a Heartless, meaning he very much does still retain moral agency. He simply chooses to follow the darkness because he's concluded in the research he'd started as a human that if all hearts of both worlds and individuals begin in darkness, then all those hearts must also end in darkness, and that darkness is the true essence of the heart. Therefore, Ansem believes he must have the Heartless devour the Heart of All Worlds itself so that as a result, the World will be drowned in everlasting darkness, with all light in existence dying completely as consequence. Does he have significant evidence to support this idea? Not really - the indication is that Xehanort's heart already believed all of this, so his "researching" only led his mind to the conclusion that his heart had reached a long time ago, and since he became a Heartless (by his own choice), he got himself hopelessly addicted on darkness so that he is perpetually Drunk on the Dark Side and is ultimately really just looking to get an eternal fix of the stuff by casting the universe into everlasting Darkness. Ansem may believe himself to be right and claim he's returning the World to what it should be, but there's nothing remotely sympathetic about him in his cause, his deeds, or his characterization.

There is one part where he does claim he wishes to help Riku, to make him as great as he can possibly be....and he says this while he's strangling Riku in an attempt to submerge his being into total darkness. Clearly, the "help" he's offering is the same he offered him back in Hollow Bastion when he Mind Raped him and took his body, and how did that end up for Riku? Oh yeah, Ansem cast Riku's heart out of his body so that he could keep the body all for himself. So his words about Riku getting anything out of letting him into his heart is all bullshitting and not redeeming in the slightest.

Lastly, this adaptation borders on Gag Series a lot, especially prior to 358/2 Days and the later parts of KHII, which is when the gags and the sincere drama start balancing each other out more. Almost every Disney villain in the manga (even Maleficent) is Played for Laughs at some point, and practically every member of Organization XIII sans Xemnas is Played for Laughs in this version. Ansem, like Xemnas, is played dead seriously every time he appears. Xehanort is the Knight of Cerebus for this manga series in both of his incarnations.

Conclusion? - With some added Adaptational Villainy along with the villainy he retains from the game, no redeeming features, and no details given of old Master Xehanort and his supposed Well-Intentioned Extremist motivations for manga!Xehanort's backstory (and with that, no chance of Xehanort's last minute redemption being a thing in this version, NOR Ansem, Seeker of Darkness himself suddenly becoming a Noble Demon who gets an Alas, Poor Villain sendoff), I'd say this manga's take on Xehanort's Heartless is a keeper. [tup]

Will follow up with an EP for Manga!Xemnas some time in the near future.

Edited by ANewMan on Feb 16th 2019 at 9:42:17 AM

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#150068: Feb 16th 2019 at 9:42:35 PM

Oh yeah. The KH manga.

Uh, my reservations? If we upvote these incarnations, what if they greenlight a KH 3 adaptation that'll merit a cut just like OG Xehanort?

Edited by erazor0707 on Feb 16th 2019 at 9:42:58 AM

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#150069: Feb 16th 2019 at 9:49:25 PM

We'll cross that bridge when we get there. We have the manga adaptation of Ganondorf as a CM who in the games, is Made of Evil. The possibility of that reveal occurring in the manga exists, but we still have him up.

Still, abstaining on Manga Ansem, at least until I read the manga or a second troper confirms that he has agency. Being intelligent does't necessarily mean he has moral agency.

Edited by Awesomekid42 on Feb 16th 2019 at 12:51:24 PM

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#150070: Feb 16th 2019 at 9:52:51 PM

I'll have to abstain as well. Been a while since I read the manga, so I'm not exactly sure about agency either.

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#150071: Feb 16th 2019 at 9:58:45 PM

erazor: If they do then we'll cut him when the time comes, but given that the manga stopped at 358/2 Days? I don't really see it continuing at all and even then the events in the manga aren't a 1/1 translation of the games, so a theoretical manga Master Xehanort might not get an undeserved last-minute redemption. But anyway, yes to manga!Ansem, and I'm honestly kicking myself for not giving the manga a look.

EDIT: Oh, and here's a thing about Heartless moral agency: I don't know if this applies to the manga, but in the games, at least? Not all Heartless are evil monsters: the White Mushrooms in the first game and a good amount of the Flans in 3 are docile and reward Sora for making them happy, with the Flans playing games with him. Plus, as a Heartless Sora didn't try to hurt anyone. Again, not sure if any of this applies to the manga but it's at least worth thinking about.

(And funny bit of trivia: a mouthy friend of mine spoiled Xehanort's redemption before I could beat 3, and while I was a bit pissed before watching the actual scene in question? I honestly contemplated asking Scraggle or Polarphantom if they thought they'd be up for making a case for Ansem... then he got an even less deserved sad death scene after his boss fight. Go figure.)

Edited by FriedWarthog on Feb 16th 2019 at 10:02:36 AM

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#150072: Feb 16th 2019 at 10:02:59 PM

I'm more on the opposing side of locking the page but if you want to lock it, oh well...

Anyways, speaking of quotes... Im not sure how most of the quotes I add reflect C Ms at all:

"I won't kill you because you're my precious specimen. The one I'll kill should be your girlfriend. There are many ways to kill her, but it would be boring if she died instantly. Let me see... Should I burn her to death? It seems interesting. I haven't witnessed something like the execution of the witches in a long time. The fire will also spread from the bottom, so you can see her desperation. Ah! There's also the scream!"
Sara Warren taunting the hero, Rokumichi, about how she will torture his love interest in the final battle, Amalgam of Distortion

"Mistleteinn is no ordinary Dream Demon. I was once a part of a group pursuing Mistleteinn. She was indiscriminately slaughtering Dream Demons in the Dream World. On that day, my allies and I caught up with her. We didn't stand a chance. I don't know why I was left alive. Was it just a chance? Was it on whim? Mistleteinn was spawned from the deepest pits of hell.....The pits of hell...Humans dispose of the negative emotions they accumulate during a day in their daydreams. They move on to happier days. The pits of hell are where all that supposedly dissipated spite accumulates."
Lestion about his encounter with the vicious Dream Demon Mistleteinn Treesea, Dream Eater Merry

Professor Clover: Are you shocked, phantom thieves?
Kaitou Joker:What are you...
[Suddenly an explosion occurs and the two Phantom Thieves heard and saw it]
Kaitou Joker: Spade! Queen!
Professor Clover: Your allies are dead.
[Suddenly Joker went angry]
Professor Clover: What a fine look on your face. Hate me! Despise me!
Shadow Joker: Even sacrificing your own underlings...why?!
Professor Clover: I have acquired everything. I have no need of an organization now. Envy me for my power to hold the world in my grip, phantom thieves! Hahahahaha.
Professor Clover confronting the Phantom Thiefs in their Final Battle, Kaitou Joker

Apos: [After Apos kills his father by stabbing him and Rin tries to take the Time Fruit that he had but Apos stomps it] Isn't that tragic? It such a pity you couldn't receive his white blood.
Rin: You bastard! I'll kill you...You worthless son of a...
[Suddenly Apos stabs Rin]
Apos: It must be so painful realizing that you kill your former lover with your own hands and now you just saw the love of your life get killed. This hasn't been your day Rin. Do you want to know why I did all this? Of course you did...It's because I want to eat your memories.
Rin:What?...My memories?
Apos: Yes, the more painful the memories the sweeter it tastes.

"I decided not to give Yusaka a painful, sad past to explain his misdeeds. I hope readers will perceive him as just being a truly horrible person, a devil in human clothes."
—The creator of Psyren on creating Aoi Yusaka

"Come on Roku. You really should've cast Iron Armor. Still, I guess in the end,[Looks at Benio] a loser will never be anymore than a loser, huh? [Grabs Benio's head] You know...You weren't really trying to kill me at first, were you? I'm sure I'm wrong, but...Did you perhaps think this was all some kind of misunderstanding? That maybe I was someone other than the brother you knew? You didn't believe that, did you!? [Proceeds to take Benio's hair tie that Yuto gives to her years ago] The fact that you're still wearing the hair tie I gave you proves how pathetic you are. [Proceeds to smashes the Hair tie]. You really don't deserve to live neither as a human being nor an exorcist. I don't even need to destroy you myself. Go on hating your own weakness as you die a meaningless death."
Yuuto Ijika taunting Benio as he tries to left her to death, Sousei no Onmyouji

Yuuto: Listen up, Roku. This is your last warning.
Rokuro: What...are...you...
Yuuto: I said this yesterday, too...It's easier to achieve my goal with you at my side. If you do as I say—-
Rokuro: If I do that...You're saying you'll spare Ryogo and the others, right?
Yuuto: [Laughs] You're right, I did say that. Sorry though. The truth is, I was just lying to move things along.
[Rokuro looks surprised]
Yuuto: Now that I have the body and power of a Kegare, just like they do, I can steal the spell power of humans and become stronger by killing them. I'll have power surpassing that of any exorcist. And to have that, I need one thing...The spell power of everyone in the country!
Rokuro:You...They'll all die if you do that!
Yuuto:Maybe so. But when you think about what's to come, oddly, it makes the sacrifice at Hiinatsuki seems a bit insignificant, doesn't it?
Yuuto reveals that he has been lying all along regarding him wanting to spare Rokuro's loved ones, Sousei no Onmyouji

Talzo: Listen to yourself. You’re out of control, Zykan. I won’t let you get away with this kind of behaviour.
Zykan: Oh, is that so? Do not forget who you speak to Talzo [Proceeds to beat Talzo].
Talzo: EYAARGGHH!!
Zykan: I am greater than you, boy. Perhaps it’s time that I took your place. Your sympathy holds your back, whereras I have no such weakness.
Talzo calling out Zykan after he killed one of Kirby Adventure Squad members Keito, Kirby Adventure

" Did you think you can win? I never play to lose. I won't kill you, I kill those you love. For the rest of your life...You can remember how your daughter and brother died."
Fok Tak-nang threatening and taunting his kidnapped victim, Grace, Connected (2008)

"No, I'll take him. I'll take all of you! And I'll feast on your flesh as I feed on your fear. Or you just leave us be. I'll take him - only him. Then I will have my long rest, and you will all live to grow and thrive and lead happy lives. Until old age takes you back to the weeds."
IT/Pennywise the Dancing Clown when holding Bill as a hostage, It (2017)

"I have made it my life's work to study pain in all its different forms, and the pain I intend to inflict on you will perhaps be even worse. There are two instruments I am going to use. Earlier today I promised you hell and now, my dear child, it is here"
Razim to Alex Rider, Alex Rider: Scorpia Rising

"I wish you could be inside my body for one minute to know what it feels like to be me. It’s like when I had tuberculosis and you took me out to the Utah desert, and there was nothing but dry, open space for hundreds of miles around us - that is what is inside of me. Those girls were a cool stream of glacier water; my heart bloomed as they nourished it. And now it’s all gone. There is nothing left but the dust and the scorpions inside of me. I was never destined to feel love. The desert knows no mercy. Anything you try to plant out there dies. I must accept this emptiness as a blessing, not a curse. I know why I was put here, Mother. My purpose is to bring death."

Father Paul Rawlings: Governor Vicus! We've been sent to release you from this prison! Let us go so that we can complete our mission and end the nightmare for you. For all of you!
Vicus: Release me? Release me!? Why would I want you to do that? We have found Elysium, have we not? Where we can feast and fuck and kill, and find no consequences? We are not prisoners here! This is freedom, absolute! And you my welcome visitors, are sports. Let the game begin!
Governor Cassus Vicus refusing the offer to move on from the purgatory, Clive Barker's Jericho

Detective Sogo Inaba: Nagito, tell me, how many people have you killed?
Nagito Akashi: Could it be?! Did our private dick crack this case wide open!? Oh, wowzers, somebody give this guy an award!!
Nina Arimura: W-what are you saying, Mr. Inaba!?
Detective Sogo Inaba: Based on those letters, I have deduced that our mastermind here has repeated this exact scenario countless times before to an art form.
Nina Arimura: Yeah, you’re talking about us being "test subjects"?
Detective Sogo Inaba: Precisely, anyone who came in this mansion were "test subjects" to be used as the groundwork for his next literary work.
Nina Arimura: Y-you mean those murder mystery books?!
Nagito Akashi: My hat’s off to you, man! Here, I encompassed everything essential in creating the perfect murder mystery! The killer’s psychology! The victim’s raw emotions! And above all else, keeping the illusion consistent!
Detective Sogo Inaba: Those murder mystery novels by an unknown author...You wrote all of them...
Nagito Akashi: Hey! Are you telling me that you’ve read them?! Because my murder mystery masterpieces are absolutely without peer! Nothing can even compare to them! Especially because all of them are based on real people and real events!
Doctor Seiya Harima: They are all...non-fiction...
Nina Arimura:T-then...All those deaths in the books...They all really happened?!
Nagito Akashi: No shit, Sherlock.
Detective Sogo Inaba: You’re out of your mind.
Nagito Akashi: However, all those other books are going to pale comparsion to this one! I can’t wait to start writing it! Oh, Nagito, you’ve outdone yourself this time!...Heh heh...AHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Nina Arimura:Y-you’re insane! To kill for such empty reasons!?
Nagito Akashi: Empty reasons? Excuse you, they were all honorable, valuable sacrifices for my ultimate art. Besides I didn’t lay a single finger on them. They all died of their own volition.
Nina Arimura: How could you say such things?!
Detective Sogo Inaba: Don’t, Arimura. Nothing we says matters at this point.
—The Real Killer, Nagito Akashi explaining his true motives, The Mystery Files of Detective Inaba No.1

Nagito Akashi: (after Dr. Seiya Harima accidentally killed Nina Arimura due to the misunderstanding between Sogo Inaba and then ended up getting killed by one of the ghosts in the mansion) I thought I heard an exciting future chapter for my book, but man, I can’t believe this twist!! Arimura’s seriously dead?! Oh man that suucks!!
Detective Sogo Inaba: ...You...
Nagito Akashi: ISN’T SHE LUCKY?! Geez, seriously save me all the effort of killing her!! Imagine the reader’s shock to learn that this poor heroine died from the hands of the people she trusts?! HAHAHAHA!!! IT WRITES ITSELF!!!
Detective Sogo Inaba:...
Nagito Akashi: Ah? Are you suffering inside, Mr. Inaba? Can’t you feel the gut-wrenching churn in your stomach? Don’t worry my friend, you won’t have to feel that way for long! I’m sending you off to meet her! Now she won’t have to be lonely in hell! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Detective Sogo Inaba:...Don’t you dare speak ill of her...
Nagito Akashi: What’s this?! Am I feeling the raw essence of pure, unfiltered resentment coming from you? AHAHAHA! But I’m being so nice to you! You don’t wanna live without your sweet Arimura, do you? You don’t want her to be all alone, right? Come on, I’m offering you a one way ticket to meet her!! Courtesy of this blade!!
—The Real Killer, Nagito Akashi being disrespectful to a dead person in one of the bad endings, The Mystery Files of Detective Inaba No.1

Review these quotes as you wish. The one I could see it go are Vicus and It's quote.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#150073: Feb 16th 2019 at 10:05:40 PM

Abstaining as well. Like the One Piece villains from context-free adaptations of individual arcs, this... kinda feels like cheating to me.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#150074: Feb 16th 2019 at 10:06:00 PM

Tentative [tup] to Ansem.

Edited by Kylotrope on Feb 16th 2019 at 10:06:14 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#150075: Feb 16th 2019 at 10:10:37 PM

Yeah, sure to manga!Ansem.

@Elfen: The only one of those I'd keep is the Psyren one. Same reason the Vidal quote works... that's kind of what I'm looking for in the trope quotes. Something that communicates they're completely evil.

Anyways, new and easy keeper tonight!

What's the setting?

Legend of Himiko is an overwhelmingly mediocre anime from the late 1990s based off a Japan-only PS1 game... now, tell me if you've heard this before: a girl chosen by a prophecy is whisked off to a magical alternate land via magic something-or-other to save the world from darkness with her powers of Plot.

Now, all the snark aside? Himiko-Den, focusing (ostensibly) on the titular Himiko as she's brought from the present day with her step-brother Kutani back to a feudal-era Asia, in the ancient Japanese country of Yamatai. Turns out she was born that, as the guardian of an ancient flame called the Bokka that kept the land safe. Upon invasion from the evil empire of Kune, Yamatai attempts to have the Bokka select a queen from six candidates, only for Kune to attack before this can be done. The Bokka breaks into six, coming back together when Himiko does... let's talk our villain. Lord Shikara.

Who is Lord Shikara? What has he done?

General-governor of Kune and son of Kune's unnamed king, Shikara is a ruthless warlord who grew up tearing through country after country as the military commander of Kune, in Kune's efforts to take over the whole world. Their path of conquest led them to Yamatai, where Shikara found out about and sought the legendary power of the Bokka. To this, Shikara opens up the series leading a full-out invasion of Yamatai, have his soldiers raze everything in their paths as he invaded the palace where the Bokka was kept. Shikara attempted to execute the six queen candidates, until the Bokka whisks them away... irritated, Shikara tries to demand answers from the head priest Jakatsu, after striking the other two priests dead in frustration himself. Shikara realizes the Bokka is responding of the power of the then-infant Himiko, cruelly striking her mother dead... before attempting to toss the baby into the fire to burn to death, watching it with a hysterical grin.

All that accomplishes is making the Bokka vanish with Himiko. To Shikara's glee, though, the fountain is corrupted, and the bodies of the two priests are revived as undead soldiers subservient to Shikara's will, utterly. Shikara keeps this to himself, turning Jakatsu into a subservient zombie (while he's alive, I should note, causing him agony every second he's kept in the state) while having his men go out and hunt the survivors of his carnage to the last man. Kune takes over Yamatai for three years while Shikara hunts the survivors, and Himiko herself when she appears after the Time Skip. To that end, Shikara has the forces of Kune start indiscriminately targeting and massacring entire villages all across the country in an attempt to find the resistance's village, as the heroes witness just one random village razed.

Shikara keeps a few hobbies... for example? Shikara starts experimenting with the dark fountain, in the hopes of brewing an undead army for himself and using the bodies of hundreds of his own soldiers as fodder for this (oh, Shikara's an awful boss, too... one walks in on the fountain of darkness, and Shikara murders him on the spot, and another has his head bashed in upon losing the heroes). One of his generals, the Four Lords, is a demigod named Chousa. Shikara enlisted his service... but secretly kept Chousa's lost love, Shouhi, for himself, horrifically disfiguring her by twisting half her body into a monstrous shape, turning Shouhi into a broken shell he keeps as a sex slave. Shikara eventually reveals this to Chousa, purely to break his mind while laughing his ass off at Chousa's horrified reaction. When Chousa turns on him and tries to rescue Shouhi, Shikara murders them both in a fit of anger.

In the end, at the climax of the series when the heroes strike back after Kune's failed attempt to take care of the entire resistance at once, Shikara takes over by murdering his own father the King and kidnapping Himiko to use her powers to activate the fountain of darkness. Eventually, Shikara gives his own body to the fountain and loses whatever's left of his sanity... proclaiming he'll not only extinguish the Bokka but all human life, to rule over a scoured land of pre-human darkness. The Bokka's flame finally comes through, though, and Kutani tosses a blade wreathed in its energies through the cackling bastard, ending him once and for all.

Any mitigating factors?

Aside from his glorious Evil Laugh?

Seriously, though? Nothing. Absolutely nothing even remotely approaching one. He cuts through the standard like a knife does butter; trying to burn a baby alive, massacring villages, killing his men like he's shooting bottles, keeping his general's girlfriend as a mutated sex slave, killing his father, Omnicidal Maniac?

Conclusion?

It's like Shikara was written to fit this trope like a glove. Easy freaking keep.

Thoughts?

Edited by Scraggle on Jan 30th 2020 at 10:16:39 AM


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