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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#14628: Jul 20th 2013 at 5:50:53 PM

Cam: they were. While initially they work for someone else, they murder him to take Over very soon. The doctor has almost no screen time though.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#14629: Jul 21st 2013 at 4:07:38 AM

If nobody has any issues, I'll submit Poison and Cobblepot to the changes sometime tonight. That leaves Owlman and Contagion.

EDIT: For Fables, what did we decide on Mr. Dark? He's still on the YMMV page and I need to know whether to request he be added on the CM page or cut from the YMMV page.

edited 21st Jul '13 4:13:42 AM by ACW

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#14630: Jul 21st 2013 at 10:54:38 AM

I'm not sure Mr. Dark even has moral agency

Crowley Since: Jan, 2001
#14631: Jul 21st 2013 at 3:00:22 PM

@Ambar, I thought the policy was to assume that any affection shown isn't fake, not assuming that there is affection.

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#14632: Jul 21st 2013 at 4:39:38 PM

Wandered onto YMMV.Mass Effect Revelation and I was wondering: what was the rationale for disallowing pre-indoctrination Saren Arterius? TV Rulez Again didn't give a reason. (The book is set before he encounters Sovereign and he's just as much of a racist mass-murdering asshole.)

edited 21st Jul '13 4:40:14 PM by StarSword

Trust me, I'm an engineer!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#14633: Jul 21st 2013 at 5:38:41 PM

Because it's not looked at in a vacuum. Saren, in the games, can redeem and sacrifice himself. While I don't mind looking at the games with the books' absence, I can't look at the EU without the games easily.

Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#14634: Jul 21st 2013 at 5:46:29 PM

Could a character be listed as a CM on the literature page if they disqualified themselves in a different form of media?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#14635: Jul 21st 2013 at 6:10:46 PM

Depends. Is it an expanded universe, a different adaptation...

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
LogoP Party Crasher from the Land of Deep Blue Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Party Crasher
#14637: Jul 22nd 2013 at 1:53:24 AM

I don't know if this is the right place to ask but why were all the CM examples removed from the Game Of Thrones YMMV page? The moderator who removed them wrote that all examples will be added on the Live-Action TV CM subpage and that no new examples should be added on the YMMV page. Is the a new policy? Does it apply only on TV? Or in every medium? Should we start removing CM examples from the YMMV pages?

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#14638: Jul 22nd 2013 at 2:18:57 AM

The point is that no examples should be added there that aren't on the Monster/ page.

I would add a link to the subpage, with a commented out note that Complete Monster examples should not be added on the YMMV page but brought here for discussion.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
LogoP Party Crasher from the Land of Deep Blue Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Party Crasher
#14639: Jul 22nd 2013 at 2:45:40 AM

[up] All of those examples (Joffrey, Ramsay, Walder Frey, the Mountain) were brought here before they were added. I recently asked about Walder Frey's status on this thread and the answer was a "clear keep". However, I don't know if something has changed since then.

edited 22nd Jul '13 3:06:31 AM by LogoP

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#14640: Jul 22nd 2013 at 3:28:22 AM

Yeah I have to say what the fuck is going on here? When did it become policy to remove examples from YMMV pages without so much as a link? Because that has never been our policy, we only included links if they were to a specific subpage.

So I have to ask why the mods are making such a unilateral decision without the courtesy of telling the people who have been working on cleaning up the misuse for almost three years now?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#14641: Jul 22nd 2013 at 3:34:34 AM

I am going to PM that moderator. Seems a bit too risky what they did there.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#14642: Jul 22nd 2013 at 4:12:26 AM

[up]Yes, everything you said in your last post was already on the page; I personally saw to that. So we have a mod whose taking actions that are making the rest of us look like idiots.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#14643: Jul 22nd 2013 at 7:24:22 AM

Did someone request it on the Changes to Locked Threads thread?

And at the VERY least, when deleting from YMMV I either PM the author or link to this thread.

Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Hi
#14644: Jul 22nd 2013 at 9:43:07 AM

Hey guys, sorry for the kerfluffle. I've noted in the hidded comments on YMMV.Game Of Thrones that the CM examples are on Monster.Live Action TV and that any further discussion should take place in this thread. Does that sound fair, or should the first part of that be placed in the actual trope list?

edited 22nd Jul '13 9:44:21 AM by Willbyr

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#14645: Jul 22nd 2013 at 10:00:14 AM

Personally, adding a link to the page listing Complete Monster examples for that work seems like a fair approach for the readers' benefit.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#14646: Jul 22nd 2013 at 10:15:42 AM

[up][up] It's never been our policy to remove them from the YMMV pages. Unless there's a subpage to redirect to for the work itself.

Here, the GOT examples should stay on the show's YMMV page. We vetted all of them

edited 22nd Jul '13 10:21:31 AM by Lightysnake

Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Hi
#14647: Jul 22nd 2013 at 10:28:18 AM

[up] Cool. My main reason for cutting them in the first place was the worry that some dunce wouldn't be able to resist adding the trope to the page with something that wasn't approved by the thread, so an explicit note to take that to this thread would hopefully put that off. I've added the approved CM examples back to the page with this as a hidden note. Reasonable?

%%
%% CompleteMonster examples approved by cleanup thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok
%% Do not make any changes to the list without discussion in the thread.
%% Wait until the end of the current season before suggesting new candidates, in case they get better by the end.
%%

edited 22nd Jul '13 10:29:01 AM by Willbyr

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#14648: Jul 22nd 2013 at 10:30:27 AM

Yep, that's good. If people ever do add new ones, we just delete them and tell them to come here anyways

Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Nohbody "In distress", my ass. from Somewhere in Dixie Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
"In distress", my ass.
#14650: Jul 22nd 2013 at 11:26:33 AM

Getting back to Drip from Jack, after a bit of archive trawling I can't really say he qualifies as a Complete Monster. Pretty dang close, but unlike in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons, "close" doesn't count for CM status.

edited 22nd Jul '13 11:26:42 AM by Nohbody

All your safe space are belong to Trump

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