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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#146076: Jan 26th 2019 at 5:09:43 PM

I'm guessing that's because NONE of the Shere Khan were heinous, or the ones that were had redeeming qualities. Of course, Shere Khan doesn't need to be an CM to be a cool villain.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#146077: Jan 26th 2019 at 5:34:48 PM

Correct. But try not to dwell too much on this. We wanna be forward thinking here.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#146078: Jan 26th 2019 at 5:37:39 PM

Lighty, who's your new avatar?

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#146080: Jan 26th 2019 at 5:40:37 PM

Another Complete Monster pothole I removed. This one was on the Live-Action TV sub-page of Unbuilt Trope. This one refers to Tony Soprano from The Sopranos as a Complete Monster. I haven't seen the series (I'm awful, I know), so someone else more familiar with the series can weigh in if they're so inclined:

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#146081: Jan 26th 2019 at 5:42:12 PM

Of course it's Nyarly.

[up] Not a single person in The Sopranos comes close to being a CM. Every "villainous" character has mitigating factors and/or loved ones.

[down] Exactly. Richie was a hot head who abused a few people, ran over some guy in his car, and punched Janice in the mouth once. Livia doesn't really do anything short of being something of an In-Universe Hate Sink.

Edited by Tyk5919 on Jan 26th 2019 at 8:58:52 AM

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#146082: Jan 26th 2019 at 5:54:54 PM

And I think the one or two we did have (looked it up: Richie Aprile and Livia Soprano) were determined to not have done enough to stand out.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#146083: Jan 26th 2019 at 6:09:35 PM

Well I finished the Firestarter duology and confident in one John Rainbird counting. Expect the EP's tomorrow.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#146084: Jan 26th 2019 at 6:56:11 PM

I think we did have some, but they were cut for not being heinous enough, reminds me of the time we cut all our Breaking Bad candidates, though It was because they had loved ones.

Okay with more than enough [tup] here’s Stu’s write-up

  • Future Man: Dr. Stuart "Stu" Gavin Camillo was a scientist working for Elias Kronish, and responsible for creating the Bad Future in Season 2. Upon Kronish’s death, Stu takes over in creating the cure for all diseases, where he gives it to the worst of humanity knowing that their abuse of it will lead to global war resulting in massive loss of life and resources while he uploads his conciseness to an Artificial Intelligence to become immortal. He would also conduct horrific experiments on 4891 people, forcibly uploading their conciseness into his mainframe leading to their deaths. In the year 2162, he would trick the people on The Mons into giving up their physical bodies and free will and uploading their conciseness into his mainframe dubbed Mankind’s Automated Reality Systems (M.A.R.S) on the pretense that they’ll be traveling to the planet Mars; those that refuse to go along this plan will be murdered by his army of robots. When he learns that Josh Futterman is attempting to invade M.A.R.S he plans to trap him there, so that he can torture Josh for all of eternity. While Stu claims to be saving the human race, he’s nothing more than a childish megalomaniac who just wants complete control over it and when his plans are exposed he orders his robotic army to exterminate all of humanity, including his own daughter Ty-Anne and his Lust Object Tiger.

Edited by G-Editor on Jan 26th 2019 at 8:17:19 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#146085: Jan 26th 2019 at 8:20:34 PM

Anyone mind linking me the EP for the Window Killer? Search is proving unhelpful.

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#146087: Jan 26th 2019 at 8:35:49 PM

Alright not sure how I managed to miss out on that one but I'm going to have to downvote... he's not just a Knight Templar, he doesn't seem to grasp what he's going as wrong. He seems to legitimately believe he's sending people to God by killing them, believes he can see the light/dark in people's souls by removing their eyes and when called out by another character, says he "saved" the people he killed before giving a deluded-sounding "I just wanna go home". I don't think it's to the point where I'd make the case he's some kind of Well-Intentioned Extremist but he's very mentally ill and I don't think in any way sane enough for this trope.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#146088: Jan 26th 2019 at 8:40:37 PM

Having talked to you with this? I agree. I say nay.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#146089: Jan 26th 2019 at 8:42:37 PM

Agreed. Sounds too insane to count.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#146090: Jan 26th 2019 at 8:44:45 PM

Pretty much what it boils down to for me... if it was just an offline about it I could take him as a religious but psychopathic killer but the thing with Windows is that almost all of his dialogue is about his strange relationship with eyeballs, the soul and (as he calls it) saving people. I just can't see him as anything other than completely out to lunch.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#146091: Jan 26th 2019 at 8:44:56 PM

Actually because I wrote faster than I thought.

Firestarter is a film based on the novel of the same name by Stephen King. The film stars a young Drew Barrymore and David Kieth.

Back in the 70's Andy [McGee] was one of many students subjected to experiments dubbed Lot-6 that were supposed to enhance psychic powers. These experiments work to varying degrees. It is also were he meets his future wife Vicky. We also see their respective powers include mental manipulation (Andy) and mind-reading (Vicky) and the two later have a daughter named Charlie who's psychic abilities are pyro-kinetic. Later in life, after Vicky is murdered, Andy and Charlie are being chased down by the governments, specifically the Department of Scientific Intelligence. The McGee's plan on exposing this conspiracy and are eventually caught by "The Shop". Things to south form there.

Enter John Rainbird, played by George C. Scott.

Who is he ? What does he do ?

John Rainbird is a death obsessed psychopath and supposed Vietnam war vet. He is also a government Psycho for Hire who mostly works for the Shop and has a reputation for being The Dreaded. When a hugh ranking doctor threatens to shut down the shop, Rainbird kills him in his sleep. Later when he learns about Charlie and her father, Rainbird confronts his boss Captain Hollister and demands that he have found the clock access to Charlie - a seven to eight year old girl - and that he gets to keep her after they are done with the McGee's. He warns Hollister that he gathered dirt on The Shop that will be exposed in the event of his untimely death in order to blackmail them.

Anyways, Rainbird is sent to capture Charlie and her father, killing some sap along the way and takes them back to the departments facilities. While the two are separated, Rainbird poses as a friendly janitor to get close to Charlie, eventually gaining her trust, and winning her over by showing her the horse stables, while the shop conducts tests on her and her father. Despite the appearances of pedophile intent, Rainbird reveals his pseudo philosophy to Hollister that he intends to kill Charlie himself and hopes that she uses the power, gives it to him and take it to the afterlife.

Andy meanwhile feigns his powers not working anymore while secretly using them to Mind Rape the agents at the department, eventually getting into Hollister's head to ensure he and Charlie escape. Rainbird puts his plan into action by luring Charlie to the stables where he is confronted by Andy and Hollister. After a standoff, and Charloe realizes Rainbird's true colours, Rainbird kills a brainwashed Hollister when he's ordered to kill him and mocks Charlie about being unable to use her powers without killing the horses. Andy forces Rainbird to break his own leg and Rainbird shoots and mortally wounds Andy. Rainbird mockingly tells Charlie he loves her before shooting at her, but Charlie not only redirects the bullet, but causes it to explode and burn Rainbird alive. Andy uses his dying words to get Charleo to fight her way out (she also mitigates Rainbird's threat about the horses by melting the latched and letting them run loose). What follows is an explosive Roaring Rampage of Revenge against the department before Charlie resumes her quest to expose the Lot-6 experiments and The Shop.

According to the "sequel" Rainbird survives...but that's a whole different EP coming up shortly. And yes there's reasons why he's getting a separate EP.

Redeeming Qualities or Freudian Excuse ?

None to speak of. John is a guy whose obsessed with death and has no loyalty towards the Department and their end goals. He threatens to throw the entire operation under the bus to blackmail them. His interactions with Charlie are creepy while he plays the role of "John the friendly janitor"; during which he makes up a bullshit sob story about being trapped shellshocked in Viet Nam to get Charlie's sympathy and trust. He ultimately plans on killing her to satisfy some sort of insane philosophy about taking her power into the afterlife.

Heinous standard

He's honestly not that impressive in the first movie, he only kills like a handful of people in the entire movie. He has a creepy pedo like obsession with Charlie but is more interested in killing her than anything else. He doesn't have that extended of an attempted bodycount, unless you want to count him holding the lives of several horses over Charlie's head.

Trust me, he gets worse in the "sequel" (again there's a reason why I say "sequel" in quotations).

Edited by Beast on Jan 26th 2019 at 10:45:30 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#146092: Jan 26th 2019 at 8:45:24 PM

Ok with that new information switching to no on Bernard.

Edited by Bullman on Jan 26th 2019 at 11:48:32 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#146093: Jan 26th 2019 at 8:47:23 PM

Well, I'll wait until you post the "sequel" before casting a vote on this. Not entirely sure why you have to separate the EP, but we'll see, I guess?

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#146094: Jan 26th 2019 at 8:49:46 PM

Yeah now switching to [tdown] for Bernard. I say I had written the EP for him, but tbh, I was very on the fence while typing it, and actually had it sitting in a word doc for weeks.

Edited by therealjackieboy on Jan 26th 2019 at 8:51:43 AM

It's Spooky Month!
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#146095: Jan 26th 2019 at 8:58:31 PM

So now for Firestarter Rekindled which serves as both a reboot and a sequel to the original film.

Despite being billed as a sequel to the first, none of the original cast returns; no footage is used from the first movie for the flashback sequences, instead going for its own version of these events; the "flashbacks" used do not depict events in the same way the first movie does and most don't remotely resemble the first movie at all; the deaths of Charlie's parents are completely different; the showdown at the farmhouse is completely different; etc. Calling this a true blue sequel to the first film is like saying Friday the 13th (2009) is a sequel Freddy vs. Jason or the Uwe Bolls BloodRayne movie trilogy is a prequel to the games.

Set years after Charlie escaped and descimated The Shop and seemingly killed John Rainbird after her father's death, has seemed to have failed her quest to expose The Conspiracy and constantly on the run. Now she is an edgy college senior who tries not to bond with anyone out of fear of hurting them. This all changes when she is caught in the crosshairs of another conspiracy involving the Lot-6 experiments. Along the way she meets a young accountant named Vincent who also stumbled upon the conspiracy his agency is running, as Charlie learns to begin to trust people again.

Of course John Rainbird is still alive and causing trouble. Now he's played by Malcolm McDowell.

Who is he ? What does he do ?

In a series of events resembling the first Firestarter, John Rainbird is one of the most deadly agents working for the Department of Scientific Intelligence. Working with high ranking officials, Rainbird gets close to Charlie as she has her powers tested, playing the role of "John the Friendly Janitor" to get her trust. Eventually Rainbird takes her to her father with the intent to kill them both; it's also stated he killed Charlie's mother. He kills Charlie's father Andy, and Charlie sets Rainbird on fire seemingly killing him.

Cut to the present day, where Rainbird has not only survived but has gained power over what's left of the Shop and moved on to a new Government department, seeking to continue their work as a high ranking member. To this day, Rainbird is still obsessed with Charlie. In the present, Rainbird has conducted these experiments on several young boys, giving the various psychic powers. He keeps them isolated and trained at a facility and grooming them to be sociopathic child soldiers, acting as a friendly mentor and father figure to these boys; his special prize is a boy named Cody, who can drain the energy and life from others and the one most detached from humanity. Rainbird's backer, Joel Lowen plans on testing these boys by having them rob a bank since such an operation will be small enough to have deniability and show their efficiency...Rainbird has other ideas.

Meanwhile, Rainbird also seeks to tie loose ends from the previous department, faking a class action lawsuit against them so that surviving subjects of the Lot 6 experiments can be tracked down and given a compensation check - in reality, it's to track them down and kill them one by one. When Charlie's new loverboy Vincent discovers that he's a pawn of Rainbird's plans, Rainbird has Vincent kidnapped and tortured, revealing the extent of his obsession with Charlie. Charlie manages to rescue Vincent, with the seeming help of James Richardson (Dennis Hopper). It's later revealed that Richardson is The Mole and one of many subjects captured by Rainbird and nearly tortured to death by him before learning that he can take him to Charlie.

One of Lot-6's subjects, Mary Conant miraculously survives her attempted assassination (if only by an inch) and manages to reveal what Rainbird is up to, getting him the attention of the FBI. Meanwhile, Rainbird has his main hitman Gil killed by his boys for his failure to capture Charlie. Two FBI agents come to investigate what Rainbird is up too and he shows them Gil's body before having them Mind Raped into letting him go. A distract Mary happens to be there and attempts to shoot Rainbird, but in turn gets shot down by agents.

Rainbird and Lowen finally put their plans for a bank robbery with these boys into action; before Rainbird reveals this is a ruse to force Charlie to confront them. In actuality, Rainbird brought his psychic boys into town to cause as much death, destruction and mayhem on innocent civilians in an effort to lure Charlie out. Helluva lot of people are killed and injured before Charlie and Vincent go to confront them. In the chaos, Rainbird discretely kills Lowen. In the final confrontation, Charlie talks the boys down, warning them that if they give into their powers, they become less human; Rainbird kills Vincent which garners enough of an emotional reaction from Charlie to set off a series of explosions. Pleased with himself Rainbird walks up to Charlie saying now she is the god he hoped she'd be, before Charlie forcibly pulls him into a kiss and burns Rainbird to dust. Charlie is forced to face off with Cody who tries to drain all her energy and power, which results in a massive explosion that kills Cody.

Redeeming Qualities or Freudian Excuse ?

John Rainbird is once again a death obsessed psychopath with a pseudo philosophy backing him up; this time he claims to he looking for God in his kills and if he can't find him, he'd have to make God himself and draw one out, in the hopes that he will he judged. That's part of his obsession with Charlie and part of why he continued the Lot-6 experiments. When confronted at one point, he says for all his "searching for God" he could have just become one of his own making by subjecting himself to Lot-6, its just that he was too cowardly. Incidentally we do see him cower a bit when his "God" finally judges him.

He's more outwardly sadistic and remorseless here, literally embracing damnation and is strait up proud that his massacre of a town went according to plan. He's so as Faux Affably Evil as they come. Part of his Faux Affably Evil streak is acting like an affectionate father figure to his boys, but is clear he is manipulating and grooming them as Charlie calls them out. He sees and uses them as weapons, and the one he has a "special spot" for (Cody), it becomes clear is just his greatest weapon to Rainbird. Loyalty to The Conspiracy ? The whole thing was a means to an end for him.

Anther reason for his obsession with Charlie is they go for the Villainous Crush route and maaaaaan is it creepy; while he's interrogating and torturing Vincent, he asks about the time he had sex with Charlie and even smells her discarded bra. Charlie speculates to herself that Rainbird is in love with her, but Vincent shoots that notion out of the sky saying that what Rainbird feels for her is sick and twisted, summing up what love actually is...and what Rainbird feels.

Heinous Standard

Kills a helluva lot of people over the movie, recreates experiments to create apathetic child soldiers and using them to massacre a town. He's tortured at least two peoples and is just a constant source of death mayhem and misery in the story. Now technically speaking Charlie does end up causing a massive firestorm that nearly descimates the town, but that was exaclty what Rainbird wanted and was expecting. Not to mention they cement the idea of Rainbird having fucked up feelings for Charlie.

Edited by Beast on Jan 26th 2019 at 10:59:34 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#146096: Jan 26th 2019 at 8:59:04 PM

I am not understanding the arguments against Bernard. There have been several keepers who are deluded or think they are killing in the name of God. Zamasu, Light Yagami, John Doe just to name a few.

Edited by username2527 on Jan 26th 2019 at 8:59:33 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#146097: Jan 26th 2019 at 9:01:22 PM

Same specific issue with Pinbacker, username. From what I've seen, it's written in a way that heavily suggests their sense of morality and right and wrong is seriously warped... with others, like Light, it can be explained away as sociopathic self-justification instead of actual impairing insanity.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#146098: Jan 26th 2019 at 9:01:59 PM

Sure to Beast's and @ User, I would debate that those three are psychopaths who's idea of serving God (or justice) is ultimately rooted in their own ego. By comparison, I really don't think Windows grasps what's wrong with his actions and almost all of his dialogue comes across as someone barely in touch with reality.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#146099: Jan 26th 2019 at 9:03:00 PM

Yes to Rainbird and Rainbird.

Edited by Bullman on Jan 26th 2019 at 12:06:48 PM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#146100: Jan 26th 2019 at 9:03:03 PM

Yes to Rainbird, by the way (and wow, hello sudden new Malcom MacDowell keeper)... though with the caveat that if we're treating the two as separate works, I'm a no to him in the first movie. Doesn't seem heinous enough (literally the only thing pushing him there is that he wants to kill a child, that's it).

Edited by Scraggle on Jan 26th 2019 at 10:05:10 AM


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