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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#145076: Jan 20th 2019 at 8:33:48 AM

I wikified The Park on the first entry, did a "see that page for details" at YMMV.The Park, and requested wikifying The Park on the YMMV page.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#145077: Jan 20th 2019 at 8:35:05 AM

@miraculous: Considering how unsubtle this show is? You'll probably find out in a couple days. wink

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#145078: Jan 20th 2019 at 8:42:58 AM

Speaking of personal quests, my goal to revist Yuma of Far Cry 4 is gonna be on hold for at least three months by way of my X-Box 360 and copy of the game being a four hour drive from were in staying.

If anyone's up for taking it off my hands, feel free.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#145079: Jan 20th 2019 at 9:06:37 AM

  • Atlas (Ciel Soleil) is the personification of the Kingdom of Atlas. After Vale was attacked by Cinder and left comatose, Atlas sought out a personification to put her Aura into in order to prevent the rest from going to Cinder. She kidnapped America and Canada, imprisoning and torturing the twins to test which one was more "worthy" of getting a Remnant personification's Aura. After the fall of Beacon, Atlas opens the Transformation Institute, a facility that brainwashes her people, and throws hundreds of citizens in there. When America confronts Atlas in the Institute and refuses to surrender to her, she threatens to break all of his bones and to have her men rape him. Later, she stabs America repeatedly while he's protecting Ruby and Weiss, pinning his injuries on Ironwood. She later selfishly unlocks the Relic of Creation and teams up with Emerald and Watts in order to kill Canada. Despite claiming that what she does is "for the good of Remnant," Atlas truly only cares about boosting her own ego, and sees everyone—even her own minions—as being disposable.
  • The ex-soldier is a Torture Technician who was hired by Atlas in case they needed to "encourage" America and Canada to work with them. After Mantle's Aura was forced into Canada in what was essentially "Soul Rape", the ex-soldier was one of the two to drag him back to his cell. He strikes Canada for laughing hysterically from the pain and would have continued to beat him if another guard had not stopped him. The ex-soldier is fired when America and Canada escape, and is hired by Doctor Polendina to be one of America's guards when he is recaptured with the intent of resurrecting Penny. When America does not do what Polendina wants, the soldier tortures him by carving the word "Sacrifice" into his back until it scars and then keeps coming back to do it over and over again for at least a month. He even coinvinces the other guards to assist with torturing America—something they normally don't do. Even though he has a brief appearance, the ex-soldier is responsible for torturing America for nearly two months and giving America PTSD—all of which he did for his own amusement.

That better?

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#145080: Jan 20th 2019 at 9:09:35 AM

[up]Oh looks so much better.

Btw I recently downloaded The Passage Triology. Anyone here famlair with it?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#145081: Jan 20th 2019 at 9:23:10 AM

MUCH better. Tyk, please add to the Drafts.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#145082: Jan 20th 2019 at 9:38:52 AM

Not that specifically, but Justin Cronin is on my list.

So, a special EP today...I've got just a few others before writeups:

What's the work?

The Shahnameh is an epic 50,000 verse poem written by the great poet Ferdowski. The name translates as the Book Of Kings for good reason and it's the national epic of Iran. The poem is very, very Persian, even reviving the Persian language. There's a bit of a political axe to grind (Ferdowski is pretty clearly unhappy with the Arab conquests of Persia and this is extremely obvious), but it's a hell of a work. Now, early on, we're gonna discuss probably the most vile baddie of the story: The wicked king Zahhak.

Who is Zahhak?

The son of King Merdas, of Arab lineage. Zahhak begins as a pious, if ambitious young man who is visited by the devil Eblis (or Ahriman, the wicked god of Zoroastrianism, who the narrative uses interchangeably), who helps to light the spark of ambition in Zahhak's heart. Slowly delving further into ambition and darkness, Zahhak contrived to murder his kind father by digging a pit where his father went to pray and concealing it with leaves...when Merdas fell to his death, Zahhak became the new king...and a brutal, monstrous tyrant.

Zahhak becomes a monstrous tyrant, killing many, many people, but then Ahriman appears as a cook and serves a marvelous feast...even introducing Zahhak to human meat. Asking only to kiss Zahhak's shoulders, Zahhak grants the odd boon, and Ahriman makes two giant black snakes grow from Zahhak's shoulders which grow back if they're cut off...Zahhak hears from Ahriman they need to feed on human brains and figures "Meh, fine." In return for the power they grant, he has two men butchered daily to feed the snakes' hunger. He then marches on the great king Jamshid, slaughtering all in their path. Jamshid is caught by Zahhak and sawn in half, Zahhak becoming the king of the world in horrific tyranny...massacres, brutal conditions...this lasts years as countless innocents are butchered to feed Zahhak's snakes. Zahhak even bathes in blood, having people slaughtered to fill pools for him. Then Zahhak learns in a vision of a young king destined to overthrow him and take his throne: the young hero Fereydun.

Fereydun's father is killed by Zahhak when he's a baby, but his heroic mother flees with him to a shepherd who nurtures baby Fereydun on a marvelous cow. Zahhak's men eventually find them, and Zahhak has the cow killed because he's that evil and petty. Fereydun, however, survives. Now, Zahhak, seeking to consolidate his rule, assembles tons of pepople to sign a document basically affirming Zahhak as a just ruler and who'd want to rebel against such a swell guy? However, a heroic, elderly blacksmith furiously denounces Zahhak, saying Zahhak has killed seventeen of his eighteen sons to feed his snakes....Zahhak releases his last son to have the blacksmith sign the document in front of the entire assembly, but the guy refuses to be fooled and declares himself for Fereydun.

Fereydun raises his army and marches against Zahhak at last. Zahhak is defeated and flees to India where he begins killing thousands. Realizing he must stop Zahhak for good and all, Fereydun rides to India after him and leads his army against Zahhak. Zahhak tries to assassinate Fereydun and his allies, resulting in a final battle as Fereydun strikes Zahhak down. Before he can deal the final blow, though, an angel appears to say that there is a different fate for Zahhak...Fereydun takes the tyrant and binds him in a cave beneath a mountain, nailing him to the walls and leaving him...whee Zahhak's own serpents are implied to take care of the rest, starving for brains as they are...and so exits Zahhak and begins the golden age of the reign of Fereydun before the peace ends.

Heinous standard?

Among the worst in all the Shahnameh. For a relative Starter Villain, Zahhak is goddamn evil. He's got the deaths of countless thousands on his hands throughout and comes off as the worst there is. Other villains get up to atrocities, but Zahhak has the biggest body count and some horrific actions regardless. Now, Ahriman himself is the lurking evil presence there, but Zahhak makes a decent show of himself on earth. He easily breaches this. The other worst villains would probably be the King Afrasiab and his brother Gavrasiad, but they genuinely seem to care for one another.

Mitigating Qualities?

Zahhak is given no sympathy for the narrative. Like at all. He's a nice kid at first, but then ahriman barely needs to tempt him. Just "Hey you want power? Let's kill your dad" and Zahhak is all "SURE!" and then gets worse on his own. Even the thing with the snakes isn't mitigating as Zahhak just goes "sure, why not?" at the end of it and butchers thousands for his snakes with no remorse. Everything good Zahhak does is explicitly Pragmatic Villainy to make a show of presenting himself as not so awful to his court and people see through it regularly. So yeah, he just comes off as evil as all hell.

I should note there is a political axe to grind here: Zahhak being of Arab descent and oppressing Persians is clearly intentional, but Zahhak's father is a good guy and this doesn't seem to be too overt

Conclusion?

And an easy yes.

Edited by Lightysnake on Jan 20th 2019 at 9:43:01 AM

11111001011 11111001011 from Peachtree City, GA Since: Dec, 2018 Relationship Status: Abstaining
11111001011
#145083: Jan 20th 2019 at 9:40:30 AM

[tup] Zahhak. It never ceases to amaze me what nasty individuals media can produce.

Help me!
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#145085: Jan 20th 2019 at 9:45:57 AM

[tup] Hell to the yes Zahhak. Another myth candidate, haven't had one of those in a while!

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#145087: Jan 20th 2019 at 9:52:11 AM

Sure there Lighty... Speaking of myth candidates... Mmmm, thinking on proposing someone from the Qur'an but unsure about this one. And think it'll lead to Rule Of Cautious Edit Judgement actually

Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Jan 21st 2019 at 12:52:40 AM

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#145088: Jan 20th 2019 at 9:56:05 AM

I have two more mythology ones potentially, too.

I'm considering Ahriman from the Shahnameh despite his minimal Man Behind the Man presence, too. Some of his demons are nasty, but agency issues is kind of a thing.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#145089: Jan 20th 2019 at 9:57:37 AM

Yes to Zahnak.

If we have somebody from the Bible, there is no reason for us not to include somebody from the Qu'ran. Go ahead Elfen!

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#145090: Jan 20th 2019 at 9:58:51 AM

Alrighty... I'll add on my to-do list soon. My target will probably be The Pharaoh from Moses storyline. But I'll see if he's as bad as I recall.

EDIT: Oh and possibly will try to analyze some Indonesian mythologies too btw

Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Jan 21st 2019 at 1:04:30 AM

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
TheUnsquished Filthy Casual from A youngun between two oldies Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Filthy Casual
#145092: Jan 20th 2019 at 10:12:54 AM

[tup] Zahhak.

(Annoyed grunt)
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#145093: Jan 20th 2019 at 10:25:59 AM

[tup] Zahnak. It's interesting how the Proto-Indo-European Religion had such a wide influence on the myths of so many but there is also such variety. You would not mistake Norse myths for Greek myths or Hindu myths now would you?

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#145094: Jan 20th 2019 at 10:27:50 AM

America and Africa also had variety but well, between the many sickness and being enslaved we just forgot them. Dunno about Oceania, they were really isolated and very few.

[tup] Zahhak

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jan 20th 2019 at 1:29:04 PM

Watch me destroying my country
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#145095: Jan 20th 2019 at 10:31:00 AM

[tup] Zahhak. FWIW, we have the main Ahriman as a CM already; I don't know if this one is a separate one.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#145096: Jan 20th 2019 at 10:31:25 AM

The other issue there is much of African and Indigenous Aboriginal, American, and so forth myths and legends were oral traditions. We only know of Beowulf because a monk wrote it down long after the fact. Thankfully a lot of people have made a real effort to keep those stories and legends alive in the same old ways

Being enslaved, marginalized and attempting to exterminate their culture didn’t exactly help matters either.

Edited by Lightysnake on Jan 20th 2019 at 10:32:47 AM

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#145097: Jan 20th 2019 at 10:33:26 AM

[tup] for King Zahhak.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#145098: Jan 20th 2019 at 10:34:43 AM

[tup]Zahhak

For the mythology page right?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
11111001011 11111001011 from Peachtree City, GA Since: Dec, 2018 Relationship Status: Abstaining
11111001011
#145099: Jan 20th 2019 at 10:34:43 AM

Look at this "winner" from Unforgotten:

  • Complete Monster: Finch is by far the most disgusting and depraved of the three (well, five) killers Cassie and Sunny deal with.

Help me!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#145100: Jan 20th 2019 at 10:36:44 AM

Depends. I think the Shahnameh is considered literature.


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