During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
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We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Lucas. I watched the film. Him caring about his dad isn't ambiguous. It is outright implied.
Hello! I've never done this before but here I go.
Weight of the World has a Complete Monster entry that I think never went through here. And I also think it needs some reworking. I'm terrible at describing things but I will try my best. There are three characters in the entry: Cinder, the ex-soldier, and Atlas.
Beware of spoilers. These entries are more than six months old so I'm leaving them unmarked here. The only things spoiler-tagged are recent revelations.
What's the work?
Weight of the World is a series of fanfics that crossover RWBY and Axis Powers Hetalia. They follow America and Canada after they awaken on Remnant and try to find answers as to how they ended up on the Grimm-infested planet. They find those answers: they were kidnapped and experimented on by Atlas and her people and given the Auras of two other personifications. Canada has Mantle's Aura, while America has Vale/Amber's.
(If you need more context I'll try to give it.)
Character #1: Cinder Fall.
Who is Cinder? What has she done?
Cinder Fall is one of Salem's henchmen. She attacked Amber (Vale) and took part of her Aura, leaving her comatose but aware and unable to interact with the waking world. She successfully causes Grimm to invade Vale during the Vytal Festival by orchestrating the Accidental Murder of Penny Polendina at the hands of Pyrrha Nikos. She hunts down one of the characters with the intent to torture him before murdering him.
Possessing part of Vale's Aura gives Cinder an empathic connection with the Kingdom of Vale's people, which means she feels echoes of their emotions. Usually this connection causes the personification distress like a part of themselves are being hurt, but Cinder is the opposite. She relishes in the pain and terror she causes during the fall of Beacon. Upon realizing America has part of Vale's Aura, she hunts him down with the intent of torturing him to death for daring to "steal" part of the power that's "owed to her". She is defeated by Canada but remains unrepentant for everything she's done. Her attempt to stab him in the back fails and he kills her.
Heinous standard?
Cinder caused the fall of the capitol of a nation, which caused severe consequences not only for Remnant, but Earth as well. Vale is on the verge of crumbling, which could take America with it and cause his people (Americans) to suffer a nation-wide Loss of Identity. Cinder was perfectly aware of what taking part of Vale's Aura could do to the people of Vale but does not care. She will do anything for power, even destroy nations and murder innocent people. She also orchestrated the murder of Penny, planned to murder America, and nearly killed Pyrrha. She also treats everyone with scorn, even her devoted followers like Emerald.
Mitigating factors or Freudian Excuse?
I can't think of any. Cinder's backstory is never explored, and her main motive is to gain more power. She never regrets what she has done or shows any empathy for anyone.
Conclusion?
I would keep Cinder but rewrite the entry to better describe why she is such a monster in this fic specifically.
Character #2: The ex-soldier
Who is the ex-soldier? What has he done?
The ex-soldier is a Torture Technician who was hired by Atlas in case they needed to "encourage" America and Canada to work with them.
After Mantle's Aura was forced into Canada in what was essentially "Soul Rape", the ex-soldier was one of the two to drag him back to his cell. He strikes Canada for laughing hysterically from the pain and would have continued to beat him if another guard had not stopped him. He dismisses Canada's pain from the procedure and mockingly mentions America screamed himself hoarse shouting threats and pleas at the scientists to leave his twin alone. He grins as he tells Canada he can't wait to hear America scream when it's his turn.
The ex-soldier is fired when America and Canada escape, and is hired by Doctor Polendina to be one of America's guards when he is recaptured with the intent of resurrecting Penny. When America does not do what Polendina wants, the soldier tortures him by carving the word "Sacrifice" into his back until it scars and then keeps coming back to do it over and over again. He repeats this process every day, multiple times a day, for at least two months. The soldier pretends he is angry about being fired but in reality he doesn't care. He encourages fellow guards to beat up their helpless prisoner.
While torturing America, he runs his hands over his prisoner's skin and presses his body against his just to terrify him. When America is freed, the ex-soldier corners him and pins him down while telling America he will never escape him and what he did to him will haunt America forever. Depending on how the reader interprets the scene, the soldier may have intended to sexually assault America if he was not fought off.
Heinous standard?
The ex-soldier tortures one person, but he made it his purpose to make that person's life hell. He is given a position of power over someone and takes full advantage of it to torment America over a period of at least two months. He does not do it out of revenge or because he believes he is right: he does it because it's fun. He also manipulates other guards into doing heinous things they would not consider normally. His only "goal" for torturing America is to leave a permanent mark on him so America will remember him forever. America still has PTSD and scars from the soldier.
Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Again, I can't think of any. He has no Freudian Excuse and shows no remorse for what he does. His "excuse" (getting fired) is a fake one. He freely admits he likes hurting America just to hurt him.
Conclusion
Keep him with a bit of rewriting to mention his lack of remorse or "reason" for what he does. He just does it For the Evulz and enjoyment over having power over someone.
Character #3: Atlas.
Who is Atlas? What has she done?
Atlas (Ciel Soleil) is the personification of the Kingdom of Atlas. After Vale was attacked by Cinder and left comatose, Atlassought out a personification to put her Aura into in order to prevent the rest from going to Cinder. She found America and Canada and kidnapped them, imprisoning them in a lab. She ordered her men to experiment on the twins to test which one was more "worthy" of getting a Remnant personification's Aura. One of those experiments involved America being vivisected to test his Healing Factor.
After the fall of Beacon, Atlas becomes a Military State. She opens the Transformation Institute, a facility that brainwashes her people, and throws everyone in there from Faunus to political "dissenters" to people who were out one minute after curfew began. America confronts her in the Institute and she declares he belongs to her, he should be grateful for everything she put him through, and she "gave him a soul." When he refuses to surrender to her, she threatens to break every bone in his body and "order her men to keep him company" (Interpret that how you wish because the author is letting readers fill in the blanks.) She attacks Ruby and Weiss during their fight, forcing America to protect them since they are frozen in time and have no idea what is going on. She pins America and demands he submit to her and admit she is better than him. He shakes his head, so Atlas repeatedly stabs him through the stomach and tries to kill Ruby (who is still unaware).
Canada finds America unconscious and goes after Atlas. She immediately pins America's injuries on Ironwood. She selfishly unlocks the Relic of Creation and teams up with Emerald and Watts in order to kill Canada.
Heinous standard?
Due to kidnapping two personifications of Earth, Atlas is responsible for Earth being dragged into Remnant's war against Salem. Every attack on Earth and everything that happened to America and Canada are her fault. Salem had no idea Earth existed until Atlas went and kidnapped the twins. She also planted numerous spies in Earth's governments for as-of-yet unknown reasons. Considering how she views Earth it's unlikely she wanted to start up good relations.
Everything Atlas does is out of self-interest. Even her "heroic" and "for the good of Remnant" acts are done to boost her own ego. For example, she seeks out a replacement for Vale so she could say she was the one who "created" the new Vale. She wants Remnant (and Earth) groveling at her feet because she is the "superior" nation. Part of the reason she targeted America in the first place is because he is a Superpower and she wanted him broken at her feet, "proving" she is better than him.
Atlas has no empathy for anyone, and cares for no one except herself. She grabs America and Canada so the other could be the spare if the first one died. She does not view Faunus or the people and personifications of Earth as people. She sees them as soulless husks as sub-human and disposable as Grimm. In fact, even her own people (the people responsible for her existence) are disposable to her. If they do not match her view of "perfection" they need to be eradicated. She remorselessly kidnaps, tortures, brainwashes, and murders.
Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Absolutely none. Atlas is never shown sympathetically and never shows remorse. Even her "heroic" acts are done out of self-interest and cause thousands of deaths. When England asks her if she regrets anything, she scornfully says no.
Conclusion
Definitely keep her.
(I hope I did this right.)
Edit: Minor edits. A few words vanished.
Edit x2ish: Added the length of time the ex-soldier tortured America.
Edit x3ish: Added the ex-soldier's other major appearance.
Edited by EmeraldSky on Jan 19th 2019 at 6:12:10 AM
To Scraggle: It was not one torture scene. It was the same torture repeated every day, multiple times a day, over a period of at least two months. Sorry for not making that clear.
—
Okay, so there's two for "yes to all three" and three for "Yes to Atlas and Cinder but no for ex-soldier". So it's the ex-soldier that's in question. Anything I can do to make it more unanimous?
Probably a dumb question, but how many "votes" should I wait for?
Edited by EmeraldSky on Jan 19th 2019 at 5:24:41 AM
