During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Mir: From Tyk's work.
EDIT: I did a few more, which I added to the batch:
- Sekai Oni: The King of Maze is the sadistic mind behind the devils. Initially a baby forced to feel the darkness of the inhabitants of his kingdom, the King embraced the darkness, gaining enjoyment through the suffering of others and even his own, going so far to kill people from a prosperous district after discovering that they were happier than the rest. Continuing with the exploitation of the "Devils", actually Child Soldiers born to serve, and realizing that the worlds of Maze and Zera were going to crash, the King of Maze ordered the destruction of Zera, sending the devils to destroy it, causing multiple disasters, with the city of Buenos Aires being totally destroyed. Capturing the real bodies of the Cheshire Devils, the King promised to reunite one of them with her mother if she killed her "brothers", and after she did this, the King brought her to watch her mother's dismembered body. In the Last Night, the King created a shield using the lives of his people as fuel before becoming the World Devil, admitting that despite his initial claims, he really didn't care about the worlds, before trying to destroy the Earth in the name of darkness itself and his own entertainment.
- Grogar: A Hearth's Warming Horror Story
& Screams Upon a Winter's Night
: Grogar is an Evil Sorcerer who sacrificed the rest of his race for {{immortality||Immorality}}. Banished to the land of Tambelon by Celestia and Luna, Grogar returns every Hearth's Warming Eve to kill those who lose their faith in the spirit of Hearth's Warming and transform them into his undead minions, along with everyone else who happens to be in the area. In the original, he kills Applejack, Big Mac, Granny Smith, Silver Spoon, Scootaloo, and Marble Pie, before freezing all of Ponyville and killing the inhabitants. In the sequel, Grogar returns and kills more ponies before freezing Trottingham, and it is revealed that he plans to keep gradually freezing towns across Equestria until he has turned the entire land into a frozen wasteland devoid of life, so he can rule over it and keep everyone's souls enslaved forever.
- RWBY Noir AU
: Cinder Fall is the Big Bad of The Phoenix
. A Serial Killer of women, Cinder prefers manipulating married women into sleeping with her, before taking their money and wedding rings and forcing them to commit suicide while promising the protection of their wives, only to have Mercury kill them afterwards. Having done so to Vernal Branwen, Kali Belladonna, and Penny Polendina, Cinder tries to do the same to Weiss Schnee. With Weiss and company foiling her plans, Cinder kills her servant Emerald to cover her tracks, attempting to leave town and start again elsewhere.
- Kitazaki/Dragon Orphnoch is a Lucky Clover agent who cares more for his own enjoyment rather than the Master Race philosophy preached by Smart Brain. A sadistic teenager with the power to turn everything he touches into ash, Kitazaki, who lives solely for fighting and killing, sees the war between humans and Orphnochs as an opportunity to never feel bored again. Shortly before the events of the series, Kitazaki took part in a massacre that left several Ryusei students dead, killing Mari and Sawada himself. When in the presence of other Orphnochs, Kitazaki uses his abilities to physically hurt them, such as pressing his fist against their cheeks. After obtaining the Delta Gear, Kitazaki uses it to engage in brutal confrontations with other Riders, and tortures another Lucky Clover assassin when he tries to steal it from him. If the mission he is given is not fun enough, Kitazaki creates "games" to challenge the rest of the Lucky Clover, such as promising to slap other members in the arm if he kills their target first, knowing this would leave them without a limb. In one of his games, Kitazaki decides to kill their king, the Arch-Orphnoch, a being living inside the body of a little boy, just to prove his superiority, despite having the information that this would result in the extinction of his entire race.
- Masahiko Minami is a radical human scientist working for Smart Brain who belives that Orphnochs deserve to be experimented on. Introduced stopping a police investigation, Minami recruits an innocent detective to spy on an Orphnoch, and orders his death when the man began sympathizing with Orphnochs. In his facility, Minami keeps an Orphnoch inside a glass box, calling him an "abomination". Minami believes that if humanity accepts the Orphnochs as equal beings, then humans will not be "pure" anymore, seeking to disable their shapeshifting abilities so they can die as monsters. Making a deal with Smart Brain to use Orphnochs as weapons, Minami captures Yuka and electrocutes her, ignoring complaints that the experiment could kill her, as he considers her a "worthless life". When she is saved by the Orphnoch he kept in a box, Minami sets up a squad of heavily armed officers to eliminate Yuka, Kiba and Takumi, indirectly causing her death. When his base is attacked by an enraged Kiba, Minami leaves his staff to die and escapes, but is later found and killed by him, spending his last moments laughing at his face and stating that the Orphnochs will never succeed. Existing solely to show that Humans Are the Real Monsters, Minami proved himself to be far more evil than many Orphnochs.
- Pretty Little Liars: Alison DiLaurentis is the book series's wicked Overarching Villain. Even as a child, she would abuse her twin sister Courtney and even helped get her commited to an insane asylum by lying to her parents that Courtney wanted to kill her. She later murdered Courtney in a fit of rage for simply switching places with her by having her Buried Alive, kills Ian because of his relationship with Courtney, and later on kills Jenna simply because she knew the secret. Besides that, Alison pretends to be Ian in an IM conservation, stalks the girls as the second A, repeatedly blackmails them, and feeds them false information. She then tries to have someone else framed for her misdeeds. In one of her appearnces, she manipulates Emily's feelings for her, and then attempts to kill the girls of the book by having them burnt alive. She also sends Hanna fake tickets and has her sent to a mental institution. Finally, she fakes her own death and leaks a fake trial of evidence to the police which implicates the girls for her "murder", fully intending to have them spend the rest of their lives in prison, just to get her revenge.
- Bumblebee: Shatter and Dropkick are a pair of Decepticons out to hunt down and kill Optimus Prime. Introduced torturing and murdering the Autobot Cliffjumper, the two arrive on earth where Dropkick kills a human simply for fun. Directed to the human authorities, the two claim to be peacekeepers hunting down a criminal to give them access to humanity's satellites. After capturing and torturing Bumblebee, the two murder a doctor who was helping them, revealing their intent to bring their forces down on Earth and kill every human being, not stopping until the planet is a cinder. A vicious pair of Brains and Brawn, Shatter and Dropick embody the worst of the Decepticons.
- House of the Dead series: The wicked Thornheart is a former associate of Dr. Roy Curien and Caleb Goldman who intends to go even farther than they. Kicking off a new plague at a party, Thornheart condemns countless people to becoming zombies and unleashes them upon innocent humans, with intentions of sending the plague global. Deciding that humanity is beyond hope, Thornheart intends on exterminating them without any of the good intentions that drove Curien or Goldman, intending on killing everything in his way, even as he hides behind his "selective words".
The images; Hiishi; Banana Fish duo; Backbeard; Kurara; Alexis; Vargas; Alistair; Inácio; Vandenski; Traigon; Lucifer; Twisted Metal duo; Scarface go next week.
EDIT: Oh, and Alison's completely spoiled on the YMMV page but unspoiled on the CM page.
Edited by ACW on Jan 6th 2019 at 4:56:35 AM
I appreciate we got "selective words" in, but the Good Bad Translation pot hole should probably be removed. We don't want to make the joke too obvious.
Also, who here is knowledgeable of Star Fox? Because I've got a question I'd like to ask but I don't want to clog up the thread.
My own thoughts on Runaways (2017) season 2:
Big Bad Jonah is still a wait-and-see, like he was at the end of season 1. Season 2 indicated he might be disqualified due to Even Evil Have Loved Ones with his daughter Karolina, but the very end of the season shows he's still willing to use her as a Human Sacrifice. There is still ambiguity with his character, and his arc isn't done yet, so we're still waiting.
There is also an Arc Villain who appears in three episodes, AWOL, who may or may not be a potential candidate. It's tricky to say.
Polar: I'm for keeping it (just like the Department of Redundancy Department pothole for the film).
hegel: The problem with that is, there are SO many grandfathered examples.
@hegelvonaxel I think this is the only thing that I truly agree with you for some contribution on the thread. Anything in particular regarding the Grandfathered entry that you want to fix?
EDIT: Hmmmm a bit of seconding ACW which is a bit tiresome but eh... I'm cool with it
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Jan 6th 2019 at 5:37:55 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell.""Backbeard"? Whose crazy idea was that name?
Anyway, long time no see people. Currently looking into Queen of Thieves (which doesn't have a page here, I checked, so don't bother looking). Within the first several lines of the prologue I've been introduced to a likely candidate, one General Tomas Jingoli. He's only had 2 minutes of screen time so far, but I expect he'll be back, and he's made a big impression. To whit:
- He arrives into the house of the heroines, correctly accuses their mother Arianna of being the Queen of Thieves, a Rebel Leader fighting the rule of one Lord Raul Capello, Jingoli's boss, and tries to arrest her.
- The girls' father Lysander tries to intervene on his wife's behalf, but it doesn't work out; Jingoli parries his blow and disarms him. But apparently he's so personally offended by this that he has to literally twist the knife by stabbing him in the shoulder and twisting his blade before withdrawing it. Probably did permanent damage to his arm. After doing so he sneers, and I quote, "Now you'll never raise your hand to your betters again."
- Arianna begs him to spare her family, but he only agrees to do so if she confesses her crimes to him in front of his men, which she does. I hesitate to think what he would have done if she refused.
- Lysander pleads for Arianna not to be taken away. Jingoli mocks him for being unable to protect his family, calls him pathetic and says he'll never understand how she chose him over Lord Capello, saying maybe she married him out of pity.
- In response to the above, Lysander spits upon the ground at Jingoli's feet. Again, Jingoli takes this as his cue to be extra mean, kicking Lysander savagely in the face. He leaves and the game moves forward from there.
So yeah, not a nice guy, huh? Don't consider this an effort post, mind; the game's barely started, I expect we'll be seeing him again at some point and I have to reserve judgement on whether he counts for after that, plus assessing the overall heinous standard, whether his boss is as bad as he is or worse, see if there are other prominently featured antagonists and whether they affect the standard etc. Plus, he needs to do a lot of bad stuff onscreen to count as well. We'll see.
But it's pretty clear he's not one of those "Just doing my job"-type evil enforcers. He had this cruel grin on his face the whole time, except when he glared at Lysander for defying him. It's clear he's petty, sadistic and personally cruel enough that he could do something to justify being this trope.
I dunno, I'll get back to you guys with more as the situation develops.
Edited by MinisterOfSinister on Jan 6th 2019 at 11:24:16 AM
It turns out there was an Alas, Poor Villain entry for Big Boy and I took it upon myself to remove it. He still has a joint one for Accidental Kidnapping and Asshole Victim though.
Okay, yes to Backbeard — yes, I had the same first reaction too — and yes to Tyk's from Grandville. Yes to Alistair, too. Stephen Rea tried so hard in that one that it almost seems guilty of us to put him up for this trope.
Has the discussion date already elapsed for Titans? Oh, shit, I'm going to take care of that.
What's the setting?
So, the new Titansverse, as it seems to be called? Is another live action DC universe that's premiered lately on DC's streaming service with the release of Titans... another, Darker and Edgier live-action take on what we know to be the Teen Titans, a teenaged team of superhuman misfits who fight crime. Well, when they're not too busy fighting each other, or gratuitously swearing—"Fuck Batman!"
...ahem. So, the new Titans? Good in some areas, ludicrous in others. For the discussion of qualifiers... it's tricky. Most minor villains like Adamson don't push the line too much, but we do have two set up to keep later on, that being none other than Trigon and his lover Angela Azarath. They haven't done much yet, so I'll report. Bizarrely enough, the only one worthy of an EP? Some guy named Vincent.
Who is Vincent? What has he done?
A brief bit of backstory? Hank Hall, the future Hawk, was the older brother to Don Hall. The two of them, in their childhood, struggled on with a single mother until Hank managed to gain a scholarship, letting him attend a private school with Don where he became a member of the football team called the Hawks (subtle).
Vincent... is the coach of this team. An extremely minor character appearing in the ninth episode who nevertheless stands out? Vincent, as it turns out, has a soft spot for his young trainees. A bit too much of a soft spot. And he's got eyes on Don, as Hank clues into, grooming the young child to lure him into the weight room and rape him, all while maintaining a cheerful guise as Hank tries to push Don into leaving, even cursing out Vincent. Vincent remains clingy to Don and then quietly lets Hank know that if word of his aggression got out? Well, his scholarship would be revoked, he'd be kicked out, and his life would be ruined... unless Vincent gets Don. Seeing no other option and unwilling to let his young brother be molested? Hank gives himself up... and the last thing we see is the young Hank being led into the weight room by a grinning Vincent...
...okay, as kind of tasteless as it is to introduce child rape right out of the blue into a main character's backstory? The show does have the dignity not to make him a Karma Houdini. This behavior? Is indicated to go on regularly each day after practice with Vincent molesting Hank. Cut to years later, when Hank is grown up and has parterened up with Dawn Granger, the new Dove? Vincent is tracked down when the two decide to start taking down pedohpiles, which means Vincent's up first on the chopping block. Vincent tries to shoot Dawn when he realizes his crimes are at risk of being exposed, only to be taken off-guard by Hank... and to Dawn's horror, when she boots up his laptop? It's filled with pictures of other children, previous victims of his. Taking out years of pent-up anger on him, Hawk beats Vincent to death.
Any mitigating factors?
Okay, so... Vincent's kind of a weird deal but there's not really anything keeping him out. Really the only thing that makes me think this is odd is that this is the third lecherous gym teacher to potentially count in a supernatural setting (remember the ones from Darker than Black and Persona 5?).
The standard? It's high, obviously, with the heroes taking down numerous awful baddies and the heroes themselves being pretty goddamned morally gray in places, Jason Todd especially, but Vincent's one guy who also happens to be a serial child rapist. "Serial child rape" is a niche that you're almost guaranteed to stand out with; even with the show making a point pedophilia is a real and widespread thing? Vincent's the worst we ever see onscreen.
Characterization? For like... four minutes of screentime? Vincent clears it. He's got all the creepy, manipulative pedo-vibes you'd expect out of him and it's made clear he hasn't changed or had any remorse in the slightest for what he's done.
Conclusion?
You know? Leaving that up to you guys. I'll monitor further seasons and Trigon/Angela especially.
Thoughts?
for Vincent.
@erazor: YUSH. IT'S THE BEST COMIC. THE BEST COMIC OF ALL TIME.
...Okay, not really. But it's wondrous, bloodily gratuitous fun. And this comic is clearly suited for someone like me who enjoys that sort of thing.
Brief but minor update: I can confirm Lysander's shoulder was irreparably damaged because he couldn't afford to go to a healer.
Because it's an easy tool to use. If you want to create a stock bad guy who's pure evil and impossible to like, a Serial Rapist is a good guarantee. A Serial Killer or even a long-term thief can wind up being enjoyed in an Evil Is Cool kind of way, but not a rapist. Plus since teacher on student rape is sadly a common thing, sports coaches included, it makes your work seem topical too.
Also,
Vincent. For obvious reasons.
Edited by MinisterOfSinister on Jan 6th 2019 at 12:04:17 PM

Alistair, Backbeard, and Elvis Presley
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff