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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

lrrose Since: Jul, 2009
#142401: Jan 2nd 2019 at 5:24:16 PM

I promised another Expanse effort post and here it is. Since it's been a while since my last one, I'll start with a little reminder.

What is the work?

The Expanse is the television adaptation of the novel series of the same name. It takes place centuries in the future, where humanity is divided between the UN (Earth), Mars, and the asteroid Belt, all three of which are involved in a cold war with one another. The series revolves around the discovery of an alien substance called the protomolecule, and the conflict that ensues because of it. I am specifically proposing the TV version of this character, as he is far more monstrous than his novel counterpart.

Who is Admiral Nguyen?

Admiral Augusto Nguyen is an officer in the UN Navy who despises Mars. He is first introduced in Season Two, where he is made fleet commander after Admiral Souther steps down from the position over the UN's decision to take actions that could provoke Mars into war.

In Season 3, UN Undersecretary General Errinwright attempts to have Asisstant Undersecretary General Avasarala assassinated after she learns too much about his plans to use protomolecule weapons to defeat Mars. Avasarala survives the assassination attempt, but she is separated from her bodyguard / black ops specialist Cotyar. Errinwright sends Nguyen to make sure that Avasarala and Cotyar are dead. Cotyar's escape pod is found by the Agatha King, commanded by Admiral Souther, who is unaware of the various political schemes that are going on. Nguyen shows up, commandeers the Agatha King, sets course for Io to pick up protomolecule weapons under Errinwright's orders, and forbids the enterty of the King's crew , including Souther, from speaking to Cotyar.

Souther gets suspicious and manages to sneak in to speak with Cotyar, who tells him about the conspiracy. Souther relieves Nguyen of command on charges of treason. Since the UN and Martian fleets are about to start fighting over Io, Souther sends a message to both fleets revealing the conspiracy to all. However, Nguyen gets free, shoots Souther dead, and takes over the King with the help of his own crew. When some of the UN ships refuse to take his orders, Nguyen orders his crew to destroy one of the ships as an example. When his entire bridge crew refuses, Nguyen does the deed himself. He then has the Io laps load protomolecule super soldiers on missiles to fire at Mars .

You may recall from my previous Expanse EP that these super soldiers were created from disabled children. Nguyen presumably doesn't know this, but he does know that if even a few of the soldiers land on Mars, the planet's population of seven billion are doomed.

The heroes shoot down some of the missiles with their own ship, the Rocinante, but most of the missiles make it past them. One of the shot down missiles hits the King, infecting the ship with protomolecule. Naomi (a Belter) and Alex (a Martian) board the King to use its overrides to shut down the missiles. They find Nguyen seriously wounded. He spends his last momnets mocking Alex and Naomi and making racist comments about both Mars and the Belt, making it clear that his attempt at genocide is motivated by racism. Naomi only manages to shut down a few of the missiles before Cotyar, unaware of the missile launch, overloads the King's reactor to contain the infection by destroying the ship, forcing Naomi and Alex to flee. Nguyen dies chuckling, believing that he has succeeded in his quest to destroy Mars. Howevever, Naomi was able to download the missiles' transponder codes and sends them to her friends in the Belt, who save the day.

Is he heinous by the standards of the story?

Nguyen has an attempted bodycount of seven billion. The most similar atrocity to this was when the Protogen corporation infected the entire population of Eros Station (about 100,000 people) with protomolecule for science. Nguyen's boss Errinwright is a nasty piece of work himself, but isn't shown to support genocide as a means to victory. The other Complete Monster I have proposed for this work, Doctor Strickland, is an evil scientist with a relatively small bodycount, but counts becuase he turns chlidren who trusted him into monsters.

I think that Nguyen passes this criteria.

Mitigating factors

Years before the beginning of the series, Nguyen served on the Vesta Blockade, where the cold war between Earth and Mars briefly went hot when one side accidentally fired on the other. While the fighting only lasted a few minutes, Nguyen saw several of his fellow soldiers die in front of him.

However, this incident is only brought up by one of Nguyen's soldiers who is trying to justify Nguyen's anti-Mars stance to Souther's soldiers. Nguyen himself never references it, has no qualms against killing his fellow UN soldiers so he can commit genocide, and makes it clear in his final moments that he is motivated primarily by racism against Martians. I think that his backstory is insufficient to make him sympathetic.

Conclusion

I overlooked him before because his novel counterpart is rather pathetic and forgettable, but rewatching his arc reminded me of just how vile this incarnation of Nguyen is. [tup]

Edited by lrrose on Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:24:33 AM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#142402: Jan 2nd 2019 at 5:25:26 PM

@Austin Yeah I'll do him too. I'll try and release him and that spiderverse candidate at the same time.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#142403: Jan 2nd 2019 at 5:25:28 PM

And that's a major yes. Great work, Irrose.

Birdy18 Birdygamer from Home Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Singularity
Birdygamer
#142404: Jan 2nd 2019 at 5:31:30 PM

I've got a Friez a question: Since he was marked as a Complete Monster in Dragonball Z and Resurrection F, does that mean that he 'll always be a Complete Monster in every appearance he makes no matter what decent thing he do and what character development he goes through?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#142405: Jan 2nd 2019 at 5:32:11 PM

No, not exactly...however, Dragonball has so many branching paths and some different continuities that some incarnation of him will remain a CM.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
11111001011 11111001011 from Peachtree City, GA Since: Dec, 2018 Relationship Status: Abstaining
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#142408: Jan 2nd 2019 at 5:33:57 PM

[tup] Admiral Augusto Nguyen

I've seen his actor, love having some non Yellow Peril asians from western works. Also, as a latinoamerican, his name really sounds epic (Augusto is a regular latino name).

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:35:15 AM

Watch me destroying my country
Birdy18 Birdygamer from Home Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Singularity
Birdygamer
#142409: Jan 2nd 2019 at 5:34:32 PM

So Frieza isn't always a Complete Monster?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#142411: Jan 2nd 2019 at 5:36:05 PM

Just depends on the continuity you're talking about. Like, the Frieza we're all thinking of, the one from the main continuity who's been kicking it for over thirty years? Yes, he's a CM and unless the writers take a page from Naruto he'll remain so. Even if that one stops being one, there's still versions of him that qualify from the original manga, video games, etc.

Birdy18 Birdygamer from Home Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Singularity
Birdygamer
#142412: Jan 2nd 2019 at 5:36:29 PM

So his character development is meaningless?

SpaceProtagonist (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Abstaining
#142413: Jan 2nd 2019 at 5:37:15 PM

Do you think Supernatural should get its own page?

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#142414: Jan 2nd 2019 at 5:37:30 PM

[tup] to the admiral

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#142415: Jan 2nd 2019 at 5:38:28 PM

His development isn't meaningless but it doesn't make him less evil, it makes him smarter.

Supernatural...give it time. Given Lucifer might be coming back and Michael's arc isn't finished, who knows.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#142416: Jan 2nd 2019 at 5:38:28 PM

[up][up][up] No.

[up][up][up][up] What qualifies as "development" for Frieza does not take him out of the category. If that development includes redeeming qualities, and it hasn't yet? We strike him. That's how it goes.

Edited by Scraggle on Jan 2nd 2019 at 6:38:40 AM

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#142417: Jan 2nd 2019 at 5:38:40 PM

Sure there to Nguyen.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Birdy18 Birdygamer from Home Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Singularity
Birdygamer
#142419: Jan 2nd 2019 at 5:39:25 PM

Like for example in his character development trope, it stated that he dropped the Bad Boss in the Broly movie

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#142420: Jan 2nd 2019 at 5:40:03 PM

Also... Expect an EP soon for me after I watched a movie. Right now. Nappy time.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#142422: Jan 2nd 2019 at 5:40:47 PM

[up][up][up] He doesn't have redeeming qualities right now. Nothing that holds up. Trust me, you bring it up? We've talked about it in some form in the past.

Edited by Scraggle on Jan 2nd 2019 at 6:40:54 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#142423: Jan 2nd 2019 at 5:41:09 PM

[up][up] I wouldn't know as I haven't seen it, but is it because he cares for his men or because he's being smarter because he saw what his terrible tactics have brought about the first time?

Birdy18 Birdygamer from Home Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Singularity
Birdygamer
#142424: Jan 2nd 2019 at 5:43:35 PM

Another thing I question about Frieza is his shockingly high popularity, if he was created to be hated since Complete Monsters are usually built like that then how come Frieza has such a fan base

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#142425: Jan 2nd 2019 at 5:44:13 PM

We don't go based on popularity. Frieza tends to be lvoed because he is such an unrepentant, evil sociopath who headlined the most popular arc of dragonball.

Edited by Lightysnake on Jan 2nd 2019 at 5:45:10 AM


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