During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
It's case by case, Elfen. It depends on how bad it is and how often.
Oh, of course. How I'd miss that?
EDIT: So, year in review for CMs? For me personally:
- I got both a Red Skull and a Joker approved.
- I finally got answers on Erebus (over a year wondering); Echkart (over 2 years); and, also 2 years, Rausch (I did this one myself; first CM for J. K. Simmons).
- My first CM from a video game (make that CMs).
Edited by ACW on Dec 29th 2018 at 12:47:41 PM
Alright, this is a possible candidate for the end of the year but I'm unsure if he qualifies or not.
What's the Work
The Message or better known as Ar-Risalah is a 1976 film that tells us the chronicles of the prophet of my religion, Muhammad, during his tenure as an apostle of the religion in the time known as Jahiliyah, it is basically a dark age for Arab itself and Muhammad tries at his best to reform the nasty customs and traditions that the Arab had. Unfortunately, during Muhammad's chronicle, he is of course, faced with several trials and tribulations including the chiefs who disapprove on Muhammad's teachings. One chief is possibly a stand out and is a possible candidate that I want to tell today... Meet Abu Jahl or better known as Amr ibn Hisham
Who is He/What Has He Done
Amr bin Hisham or better known as Abu Jahl, the father of stupidity, is one of the higher ups or the leaders of the Quraiyshi tribes in Mecca. He is known as the father of stupidity because he is a huge enemy/dissenter of Muhammad's teachings. The reason is that Muhammad's teaching are going against the tradition of his ancestor afraid being destroyed.
He is first introduced where he threatens Muhammad's uncle, Abu Thalib, that if he doesn't restrain Muhammad for his teachings, he will try to restrain Muhammad himself and he is truly paranoid because he don't want to see his children becoming the teachers of them which like I said, would go against his traditions.
After this, when one of Muhammad's followers, Amar, revolted against Abu Jahl, the latter threatens to whip Amar if he still follow Muhammad's words and due to him disbelieving Muhammad's new god, he then—in a condescending manner—forces Amar to speak what god said regarding "Slave is equal to his master". He then watches the show regarding one of his buddies, Umayyah, orders his slave, Bilal ibn Rabah, to whip Amar's face in order to prove Amar's words being correct.
However, Bilal refuses to do so which resulted on him getting tortured by Ummayah by getting whipped and puts a hot boulder to be placed in his chest while Abu Jahl simply watches Bilal getting tortured with his buddy, Abu Lahab. When one of Muhammad's companions, Abu Bakar, tries to release Bilal from his horrifying punishment, Abu Jahl refuses to do so because it will violates the social laws when the slave is still at his punishments but Umayyah just throw Bilal away anyway.
When Muhammad's followers began to revolt in the holyland of Mecca, Abu Jahl encourages and provokes the Mecca citizens under the pretense that their religion will be destroyed because of Muhammad which resulted on Mecca citizens harasses Muhammad's citizens by throwing stone to them and Abu Jahl still intents to destroy Muhammad's followers because of their small numbers. Fortunately he was stopped by one of Muhammad's followers, Hamza.
Seemingly stopped, Abu Jahl's vengeance doesn't end there as he intents to destroy Muhammad's followers one by one by torturing them. Some of them were tied to the ground during the heat of the sun and in the meantime, Abu Jahl tries to mentally torture Amar by whipping him and seeing his parents getting tortured including his mother who is punished by rack type like punishment. The reason? Is so that he could convert them back to his side by saying that Hubal is their god. When Amar's mother spits on Abu Jahl's face, the latter then impales her with a spear with his son watching the horror.
Because of his actions, some of Muhammad's followers iirc, died from the torture after being kept in a storage room by Abu Jahl before they even getting tortured and this resulted of some of the Muhammad's followers performs an exodus to a country known as Habasyah/Abbesinia or better known as Ethiophia in the present day in order to avoid the tyranny that the Mecca people had committed.
In the meantime, he trains his son in order to kill Muhammad with a spear and feels a callousness when they died and plans to blaming it on someone else. And when one of Abu Jahl's buddies, Sufyan, razing some of the houses or stores that Muhammad's follower had by taking its valuable goods and sell it to Damascus, Abu Jahl simply goes to Medina and taunts them regarding the stolen objects that was sold in Damascus. Fortunately, he was killed in the Badr fight, killing the bastard for good once and for all.
Freudian Excuse/Mitigating Factors
Uhhh... He has none actually. While he loves the old tradition that the Mecca had, it was mostly a fanatical thing that he had and nothing mitigating there and he is perfectly fine if Arab stay in their depraved ways. Also, he is one of the people who visits Abu Thalib in his dying bed but it doesn't have any emotional impact for himself and he doesn't care that much with his son and mostly cared about the name of Mecca so yeah...
Heinous Standard
Well, this is a tricky one... I'm not going to sugarcoat it but I have to admit that the conditions that the Arab had? Is depraved as hell which possibly resulted the work having a bit of a high heinous standard. There's a people who tries to burn their baby daughter alive and while this is offscreen, it's told in a detailed manner, there's also one of Abu Jahl's buddies, Ummayah, who tortures his slave by whipping him and putting a hot boulder on his chest, and some of the higher ups of Quraishyi tribe especially Sufyan doesn't approve of Muhammad's teaching which resulted on them ordering the Mecca citizens to cutting their ties with Muhammad and his follower which resulted on them suffered
And Sufyan himself? Vandalizing Muhammad's followers good especially before and after his exodus to Medina and sold some of their goods to Damascus in order to see them suffer and let's not forget there's also a war that happens around two times iirc, Badr and Uhud, and then there's a Bedouin tribe in the end of the movie who start to kill some of Muhammad's followers. And don't get me started on Thaif where Muhammad was thrown stones by the citizens in there and then there's Sufyan's wife Hindun who wants to cut Hamza to pieces even if his death is fast because she wants to seek vengeance for her fallen families in battle.
But I don't know about this... I think Abu Jahl passes the mark a little bit mainly because of his attempted torture. Keep in mind that while Umayyah almost did the same with Bilal, I feel that Abu Jahl's torture is a bit more brutal and personal compared to Ummayah (Racking someone's parents while having someone to watch feels rather awful) and it was revealed that he will do this on the other people who still follow Muhammad. So yeah... I'm torn on this one.
Final Verdict
I'm cool if he doesn't keep due to the concerns of the heinous standard as a whole and this is probably my last proposal of the year for now I guess.
Also, a confession to make that probably you guys will hate me for this but I'm actually a Muslim. I'm scared to say this because well... The religion had a huge stigma especially in the west. I'm still a proud member of my religion but at the same time, you guys will be hating me thanks to this shocking revelations so yeah... While I do confess, I feel rather uncomfortable talking about this
Jahl
Relax Elfen it's okay. No one is going to have an issue. Plus uh I grew up with Muslim neighbours in S.A. so I don't have any issues there.
Edited by miraculous on Dec 29th 2018 at 9:48:27 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."@miraculous @Lightysnake Thanks for the kind words man. Have to admit while Muslims have a bit of a stigma, I actually hope that it would become a lot better and acceptable in the future.
Still, have to admit that I covered this up because I saw the movie through my childhood days and remember Abu Jahl being a bit of a standout especially on Muslim tales. If you ask me, the other ones who possibly stand out are Fir'aun/Pharaoh in my mythology, Nimrod in my mythology and so on but errrr... I'll leave that aside.
And yeah, I actually saw that Morgen also read the Qur'an regarding the devil's portrayal in the Holy Qur'an and it's rather true. Although I have to admit that we still need to watch out for him.
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Dec 30th 2018 at 12:52:38 AM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Jahl.
The End League duo. I take it Wolfangel just happened to look like a vulture before whatever freak experiment Red Skulled him ?
And
the Emperous.
Also I gotta do a vote tally on Uncle Ryan
.
Amr bin Hisham
And yeah, don't worry Elfen, we're not a Islamophobe shithole.
Watch me destroying my countryNormally I don't like having to wiegh in religious or political views on public formats - but you're among friends here Elfen. Matter of fact bigotry is a personal berserk button, so you won't find any from me or hopefully anyone on here.
I personally don't care about ones religious beliefs, but due to personal experiences with religious fanatics - and regrettably a past as one - I do have feelings with how they shape someone. Short of it, Relgion is not what I take issue with, but the kind of person they are.
That's about all I am willing to comment on.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."As for Lowry, it's a hard one. The thing on his mom isn't explroed. There's a letter from his mom where it says "Oh, I know you didn't marry to spend more time with me", but it's...not delved into much. It could be creepy and Oedpial or Even Bad Men Love Their Mamas
If it wasn't that, I'd upvote Lowry's creepy ass in a heartbeat
Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 29th 2018 at 11:04:23 AM

Hate to double post but recently I finished a film called The Message. Now I've got a question: Do you think a person who tortures—especially said tortures are a bit brutal and personal—multiple people could qualify this person in a setting where war is a bit common?
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."