During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
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Not yet, Clown Face reserved it.
The Empress Dowager
...given that the story is set in 1907. I'm sure things are going to go From Bad to Worse. Sounds weird, but there worst things to come to China.
...uh. Depressing thought of the day.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Dec 28th 2018 at 1:36:49 PM
Watch me destroying my country
Ok I just saw it and I don't think anybody counts. The Big Bad falls into Even Evil Has Loved Ones, the second most noteworthy villain mentions having friends and I don't think is heinous enough.
to the Empress.
to Evil Coop.
I've got a potential candidate from Red Dead Redemption 2. This one won't be too spoilerly since it's from a Stranger mission. I give you Edmund Lowry Jr., who's a possible ancestor of Eddie Low from GTA IV.
Who is Edmund Lowry Jr.? What does he do?
Edmund Lowry Jr. is a serial killer operating near the town of Valentine, though his killings extend across New Hanover and Lemoyne. Edmund targets any victims that he could come across, gruesomely mutilating their bodies by bisecting and decapitating them. Protagonist Arthur Morgan can come across many of his victim's remains, all put on display. Edmund stuffs sections of a map into each of his victims' mouths of his location.
When Arthur locates the hideout, the entrance is not a pretty sight. Bones of even more victims lay scattered across the ground, human skulls arranged on shelves, and buckets of blood, guts and dismembered body parts. There are also newspaper clippings detailing Edmund's mass killings as well as missing people, all who are apparently his other victims.
A second room has human scalps and other limbs hung on the wall, as well as his weapons and tools that he use. Not only that, Arthur can find anonymous letters intended for the press demanding recognition for Edmund's crimes. There is also a bed, next to it is a pot filled with human remains, as well as utensils. This implies that Edmund is not only a serial killer, but a cannibal as well.
The final room is probably the most disturbing. Arthur can find a naked and headless corpse hung on the wall, torn open from the groin up. Another corpse is also hung, this time the decapitated head is impaled on a hook. More human skulls can also be found of various sizes, and Arthur can find a severed head whose mouth is stitched together. Arthur can also find a camera pointing to the bodies, implying that Edmund takes pictures of his mangled victims.
Suddenly, Edmund attacks Arthur from behind and knocks him out. When Arthur comes round, he sees Edmund preparing to mutilate him with sadistic glee. Fortunately, Arthur tosses a severed head and Edmund, distracting him long enough for Arthur to knock the bastard out.
Arthur then takes the captured Edmund to the sheriff in Valentine. As Edmund is taken to a cell, he shows absolutely no remorse for his crimes and takes pride in his actions. Suddenly, he breaks free and attacks the sheriff, prompting Arthur to shoot the guy dead.
Heinousness?
Holy shit, is this guy an absolutely nasty piece of work! He kills his victims for the fun of it as well as the attention he gets from his killings, and he's a possible cannibal to boot. He's rivals the Skinner Brothers and Murfree Brood in depravity, and commits similar actions as them. He's probably even worse than even Micah Bell.
It's possible that he suffers from a mental disorder, as a letter from his mom has her ask him if he has been taking the laudanum that the doctor prescribed for him.
However, that in no way in hell excuses his crimes. As he prepares to mutilate Arthur, he eerily gloats about how he'll grant Arthur sweet release through pain, and is clearly enjoying what he's doing.
Mitigating Factors?
A letter from his mother shows that he does care for her, often trying to spend time with her when he was much younger rather than marry. However, it's implied to be more of an Oedipus Complex rather than a genuine empathy.
Conclusion?
I'd say that he takes the spot. He's a monster to the core, through and through.
Edited by hittheassassin on Dec 29th 2018 at 5:00:11 PM
Enthusiastic yes to the Empress.
So, to try and alleviate some major, major real-life stress, I got another two candidates from a pretty great comic I read lately...
What's the setting?
The End League is a comic series from the minds of Rick Remender and Mat Broome that I can only aptly describe as “post-apocalypse Justice League/Avengers.” In an alternate timeline, in the 60s, the greatest and only superhero on Earth, Astonishman, accidentally caused an event called the Green Event... attacking an alien spaceship he had been tricked into believing was a communist camp, which resulted in one of their bombs detonating and the entire Earth being covered in horrific radiation. Over two-thirds of the world populace dies... but among the survivors, there are thousands who developed mutant powers because of these powers. Superhumans inherit the Earth, known as the “Magnificents.”
...and, erm, most of the Magnificents use their powers to be self-serving assholes. There are heroes, but they're far out-numbered by the baddies, with the heroic Magnificents – fewer and fewer in number each day – in a constant political struggle for what's left of the Earth. Now, many of these villains are obvious expies of DC/Marvel villains in the same vein of the heroes being expies (the Smiling Man is the Joker, Azul is Mephisto, Wolfsangel is Red Skull). Naturally, our Big Bad? Is a Lex Luthor expy, the archenemy of Astonishman... Charles “Dead” Lexington.
Who is Dead Lexington? What has he done?
A suave sociopath utterly corrupt to the core, and a powerful millionaire, Dead Lexington is the reason for all the misery in the setting. Growing up to a prejudiced father whom he later murdered, Lexington became a ruthless politician who had all those he saw as rivals – including every single person who ever mocked him in school, in a petty touch – “disappear.” Eventually, Lexington, then a well-known presence in New York at that time, had Astonishman attack and massacre a ship full of peaceful aliens that meant to evolve humanity... leading to one of their bombs detonating, exactly as Lexington intended. Lexington watches as three billion people die because of his manipulations and the rest are showered in radiation, eventually consolidating power among himself to rule over what was left of the Earth.
Lexington takes over the entire planet, dividing what's left of major cities across America to his psychotic supervillain lieutenants to degenerate into horrible dystopias. Styling New York into “New Lexington,” Lexington makes his city a haven for only those he deems of any intellect or use... while having everyone else across the world purged, leaving them all to suffer and perish by countless numbers of disease or starvation as he controls the flow of literally all food on Earth. Every single Magnificent who hasn't turned to him, who form the End League to protect those victimized by him? Lexington plays to wipe them out, slaughtering the vast majority of them in an event known as the Annihilation.
The rest hole up in a base called the Hidden Citadel, where Astonishman protects them. Lexington, in the comic's first arc, has the demon under the control Brother Occult, having Occult banished to eternal suffering and having the demon sell out the rest to him. Lexington has Astonishman's wife kidnapped, having her brutally tortured as he visits and taunts her, gleefully noting on when he'll have her “reprogrammed.” Afterwards, Lexington has the Citadel attacked and more of the heroes butchered, with Lexington revealing his ace in the hole... the deceased hero Thor and Astonishman's own old ally and good friend, whom Lexington revives then lobotomizes to turn him into his slave. Lexington has Thor beat Astonishman, to literal death, crippling the League while Lexington pumps out propaganda to the rest of his citizens. Lexington has the survivors of the massacre chased across the ends of America, with plenty more death following as he watches.
Now, a twist happens later in the plot... it turns out Lexington is appeasing an eldritch god called Nargor'ri, with said demon trapping Occult (named Azul) acting as a liaison between them. Nargor'ri's magic keeps Lexington alive and the sacrifices keep Nargori'ri out of Earth, and so Lexington regularly pledges dozens of souls to be consumed by it to stay alive, with only his latest batch being two-dozen sacrificed to Nargori'ri. Nargor'ri hasn't been satisfied, though, and now wants to devour the entire planet... which Lexington seemingly doesn't want, given he wants to rule the planet. Lexington, in the comic's climax, forms a temporary deal with Brother Occult and another hero, Clint (or the Prarie Ghost) to kill Azul and prevent the coming of Nargori'ri with a million souls.
...except Lexington has no intention of fulfilling that. Lexington, giving the heroes back Kelly but admitting it's solely because he's bored of torturing her, suddenly reveals the truth of Astonishman... given the other members of the League didn't actually know Astonishman was the one who triggered the Green Event himself? Lexington spills the beans, gloating it's for “no other reason than to salt the wound.” Fatally draining the Prairie Ghost of his energy, Lexington reveals the depths of his hollow misanthropy and contempt for mankind and their morals, admitting he had no intention of appeasing Nargori'ri and just wants it to destroy everything so he can watch the end of humanity with a smile on his face. Left on the edge of death in his own lair, Lexington almost dies content as Nargori'ri consumes the Earth (long story, but the world's populace is brought to another world)... but Thor, freed from his control earlier, corners him. Lexington freaks and begs Thor to just let him go with the rest of the Earth, but Thor vaporizes him and the rest of the building on the spot without flinching. “No.”
Any mitigating factors?
Uh... nothing. Nothing to talk about. No excuse, no redeeming moments or honored with any that could be construed from his Enemy Mine squeezed out in the finale, and he sets the standard. Though eventually revealed to be one part of a Big Bad Ensemble, Lexington's deeds are the most wide-ranging and personal in the comic. There are lots of nasty customers – some of Lexington's goons are bad, the Smiling Man puts the heroes in really sadistic death traps and turns out to be the god Loki threatening to let humanity die if they don't bow to him, Azul is a piece of work himself, and my next qualifier is perhaps a lot more viscerally vile than Lexington... but in terms of scale, in effect, in sheer body count? Absolutely nobody meets Lexington, and he soars past the standard.
Conclusion?
Keep him. Easily.
Thoughts?
Edited by Scraggle on Dec 29th 2018 at 6:19:33 AM
And the next... resident Red Skull expy, and coming up hard for one of the coolest-named candidates I've ever pulled up here? Nazi general Wolfsangel.
Who is Wolfsangel? What has he done?
A sadistic, time-displaced Nazi warlord with a monstrous red face (I'm not joking when I say "monstrous
◊" either) Wolfsangel is an old relic of WWII who was heavily affiliated with all those general Nazi atrocities you can imagine... having thousands upon thousands of Jews and other victims of the Holocaust tortured, starved and worked to death in the camps, with a gigantic pile of bodies of those he's killed seen at one point ("the price paid to ensure a pure and advanced civilization for our race") Wolfsangels's true claim to fame is his his experiments. Specifically... that on children.
Wolfsangel? Had several young German kids horribly conditioned in his watch, ruthlessly training them to maim and kill their enemies by using the corpses of the Jews, gypsies, dissidents etc. Wolfsangel's killed as target practice, while having them pumped with poisonous chemicals and tortuously experimented on to augment their superhuman powers. All this? To get some superpowered child assassins. One of these characters? Wotjek, who as it turns out is Soldier American and a hero in the modern day (which is a plot twist... the original Soldier American? Wolfsangel had him executed in the camps) who was warped into a hollow shell from Wolfsangel's torture and abuse. Eventually, he and the other children were promoted from attacking corpses to practicing on live targets. Wolfsangel select a number of his prisoners from the countless he keeps in the camps and has the kids all brutally kill them with their powers for practice, intent on having every child officially graduate to murder... and he means it. When one of the children hesitates? Wolfsangel blows out her brains
without a second of hesitation before forcing Wotjek to slaughter the last one.
Eventually, Wolfsangel and his sick experiments were stopped by Astonishmen, with Wolfsangel escaping custody by jumping into the future... and leaving all of his men to be slaughtered by the heroes in the process. "Your Fuehrer will avenge you! ...in due time." In the present day? Wolfsangel leads a new group of supervillains in the "Berlin Dome" who are opposed to Lexington, but only because they want the Earth to themselves. In the meantime, Wolfsangel's picked up a new hobby of... um, serial rape and murder. In his private quarter? Wolfsangel has batches of women he inseminates to try and bear his horrible, monstrous children, invariably leading to the death of both mother and child... Wolfsangel tosses the most recent dead baby aside like trash, nothing more than bored with his lack of progress there.
Now, Wolfsangel's ultimate ace in the hole is having bred out an entire army of Astonishmen, mindless slaves, through his genetic material... and he has Thor's hammer. That combined with the sheer, pure altruism necessary to wield said hour? Wolfsangel would be unstoppable. Wolfsangel, when Soldier American tries to wield the hammer, reveals his own inability to use the hammer is because he was his Nazi youth, all along... but thankfully, before Wolfsangel can find a way to destroy Lexington and all the others? The Smiling Man turns into Loki and destroys his scheme again. Unperturbed, Wolfsangel lets Loki know that traveling through time let him know more than Loki ever could... and jumps through time again.
...cue the last we ever see of him overlooking the new world humanity was relocated to, with new plots brewing in his mind we'll almost certainly never see. I hate cliffhangers.
Any mitigating factors?
Once again, nope. His attempt to save the Earth is so he can rule it — somehow, I don't think a Fourth Reich is a very noble goal even when the other option is "total obliteration." Wolfsangel himself has obviously nothing altruistic or redeeming about him.
Now, among the many other villains? Wolfsangel is by far the most horrid and despicable outside Lexington, and the nature of Wolfsangel's atrocities are distinctly awful even lacking Lexington's body count. Wolfsangel is a Nazi war criminal who had countless executed in WWII, experimented on, tortured and murdered child soldiers, happily leaves his men to be butchered, and the whole "raping and murdering countless women to breed monstrous babies that never survive" is a particular low. All of this is utterly unique in the setting even with the cruelties of the othere baddies.
Conclusion?
It's been almost ten years since they had that cliffhanger. I think we're safe calling Wolfsangel an easy goddamned keep.
Thoughts?
Edited by Scraggle on Dec 29th 2018 at 7:02:40 AM
Yes to Lexington, considering he goes full Omnicidal Maniac there at the end.
Is Thor an expy of Thor? That seems problematic copyright-wise.
EDIT: And yes to the Red Skull expy Karma Houdini. That image may be a good one.
Edited by ACW on Dec 29th 2018 at 9:03:45 AM
