During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
BTW, Herod's the 4th CM for Ciarán Hinds, who also played Jonathan Reiss; Roarke (though played by Peter Fonda in the first film); and Steppenwolf.
Edited by ACW on Dec 24th 2018 at 6:00:42 AM
Herod
So I've reflected on Persona recently, and I think I noticed another candidate most of us has overlooked. He may not have shown himself in person, but supplementary materials and background has made me consider this one person. We have Kouetsu Kirijo from Persona 3.
Who is Kouetsu Kirijo and what does he do?:
Kirijo is the patriarch of the Kirijo group before the events of Persona 3. He's also the catalyst behind the terrible events of Persona 3, including Complete Monster Ikutsuki. Discovering and desiring to harness the power of the shadows for a new source of energy, the experiments Kirijo conducted lead him to find a dark secret. This dark secret was The Fall, and apocalyptic event that lead Kirijo in a path of unethical practices and eventually attempts in leading humanity to its final demise.
While at first he intended the project to be one of well-intentions, Kirijo eventually succumb to nihilism and began conducting experiments to bring out the Fall, using numerous scientist who he corrupted with his vision or force in his services. This was because of growing nihilism from learning about the event, and eventual belief that death is is a deliverance. To his end, he had one his main scientist, Shuji Ikutsuki, round up street children for experiments to give them Personas in order to study the phenomenon. He also began the production of anti-shadow weapons by inserting Dark Plumes to robots, which gave them souls, and also experimented on them. These experiments lead to numerous deaths of both children he took and the robots he had their own souls, which Kirijo showed little contempt.
Eventually Kirijo manage to figure out how to bring out the Fall, and began making his move in making it happen. In order to prevent this, one of the scientist, Takeba who was force to work for him, to cause a self-destruction in the lab and attempt to end Kirijo and his followers. 100 died from this and Kirijo's horrible tests help cause a chain-effect that lead to the Dark Hour and the Apathy Syndrome that drives plenty of innocent people to comatose states. His follower Ikutsuki also continued his legacy under his influence, and almost brought humanity to it's end. All of this was in someway the fault of Kouetsu Kirijo.
Heinousness:
The essential catalyst of the entire conflict of Persona 3 which includes the numerous deaths from the experiments he had fully allowed, the victims from Apathy Syndrome, and even the near success of the Fall. All of Ikutsuki's action can also be link directly to Kirijo, making all of his accountable to Kirijo who influence Ikutsuki to be the monster he became.
Mitigating Factor:
Not appearing directly, and only being a postmortem character would be the obvious one, but we seen before characters who died before the events of the work count for the aftermath which the characters have to deal with. Clearly we see that throughout the game like the Dark Hour and the dark history of the Kirijo Group. He also does have appearance outside the main games, like Drama C Ds and supplementary materials that are about the events before Persona 3 which gives him more information.
He also started off with good intentions, but he eventually loses that from his obsession with the shadows and the Fall. This might argue that Kirijo just became mad from revelation, but Kirijo still had his crimes of child experimentation and forcing living robots to kill each other applicable to him since he has done those willing. It also worth mentioning that his own son said that Kirijo was never really the nicest guy before the shadows came to the picture, and he did willingly succumb to the nihilism of Nyx and his coming.
Also comparing his heinous level to Ikutsuki. Ikutsuki's action were all influence by the actions of Kirijo in the past so it's argued that Ikutsuki's deeds are Kirijo's fault so he still reaches it, possibly surpass Ikutsuki himself for being the first to do it and with a clear indication of free-will.
Final Verdict:
You guys are the judge, jury and executioner. This is someone I just though of and I knew was never brought up. At least it's an interesting consideration even if it doesn't push through.
Edited by TheImmortalAngelNewton on Dec 24th 2018 at 7:10:24 AM
Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - GiselleCondensed entries that were in the Drafts:
- Stories and Tales from Dimension 63: Linka Loud is the alternate world counterpart of Lincoln who switches places with him to escape her life. Striking a deal with William Cryptos, Linka first injures Lincoln's body to prevent his sisters from getting suspicious, and upon getting into conflict with him, she drastically ages her family and Lincoln's to force him into giving her the fragment. Despite her backstory, Linka is a hedonistic sociopath who gleefully takes part in William Cryptos' plan of destroying reality as long as she benefited.
- The Phantom of the Opera (1989): Erik Destler, unlike his more sympathetic incarnations, is reimagined as an inhumane beast. When a Deal with the Devil ends with Destler's face disfigured, Destler became a serial killer who skinned his victims to cover up his disfigurements. Upon seeing aspiring opera singer Christine Day, Destler becomes obsessed with her, flaying a scene-shifter to scare the lead actress from her role in a production and later decapitating her at a party to incite a panic. Enraged that Christine disobeyed his orders by meeting Richard at the aforementioned party, Destler tries to rape her before murdering two police officers and personally disposes of Richard by setting him ablaze.
We somehow went from around 30 to 41.
Next week's batch will be the last one of 2018. Let's make it a good one people.
Most the things I base Kirijo on was from a novel, Persona 3 Club Book which talks about the beginnings of the events before Persona 3 and his impact was stated throughout some dialogues in the Arena games whenever Mitsuru talks about the crimes of Kirijo Group in the past, especially when it involves Ikutsuki in Ultimax, and how her grandfather was responsible for the events of 3. Also, it was stated that Ikutsuki was a follower of his ideals and practices and Kirijo did approve his experiments. Still it is a bit skeptical, but just though to bring it up.
Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - GiselleOk I rewatched Miracle Day and here's Danes rewrite.
- Torchwood: Miracle Day: Oswald Danes is a former school teacher, who secretly molested several of his students. First seen on death role for the murder of one of said students, but surviving. Danes takes Jill's offer to be the face of Miracle Day, which revels in the attention of. When Jill reveals they plan to abandon him when is if no more use, Danes batters her then runs away. Danes head to Wales and joins up with Torchwood. His last moments are spent bragging about how he will chase his student in hell, while he blows himself up along with the Mother.
I gotta ask: Do we actually see Danes raping someone (discretion shot allowed of course)? Because if we don't I'm not sure he's bad enough. I know Torchwood's not Doctor Who itself, but it's the same franchise, and it's not like, say, Constantine vs. Arrow, where the standard's aren't vastly different.
Mind if I repost this? I posted it yesterday, but must have been buried.
Found on YMMV.The Young And The Restless:
- Complete Monster: Matt Clarke, who raped Sharon and Amy, then faked his death and framed Nick for his murder. Even after Nick was proven innocent, Matt's final act on earth before dying for real, was telling Nick on his death bed, that he had raped Sharon again, calling Nick to question if the child that his wife was carrying was really his, leading to a situation in which Sharon miscarried the baby, whom Nick was indeed the father, revealing that Matt had been lying the entire time.
Worth looking into, or should it just be deleted?
(Annoyed grunt)2 rapes, framing someone, and Kick the Dog? For a soap opera, that may JUST be bad enough. But for now, cut and PM the troper.
Now that mention it no, but he does go into great detail about it and so do other people. We also see the trial were he says she should of run fast and I believe a picture of her before and after the murder.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadI guess if tgis ep is using supplementary materials where he actually shows up.
Kirijo.
We've had other cases of Post-humous charcaters or ones using other supplementary materials for tgere deeds or personality. So I dont see an issue here.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Kouetsu Kirijo...
Dude is easily one of the worst SMT guys but he...never appear. Had he being in a flashback, I would say Yes. But so far...
He appeared in one of the obacure spin-off novels actually?
Edited by KazuyaProta on Dec 24th 2018 at 11:52:14 AM
Watch me destroying my country
Not in the game, except for explanations and in a cutscene in Persona 3 FES. That said he has appear in supplementary materials which gives him a distinct personality of a cold and nihilistic man that would do anything to bring for the end of the world.
Also some scenes in the movie and I think the manga (not sure if they reach that, but they did bring a flashback in the explosion years before the game.), even if it was brief...
Edited by TheImmortalAngelNewton on Dec 24th 2018 at 8:54:44 AM
Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle

Speaking of The Nativity Story, I just realized something: I did a quick Google Search, and it turns out that the writer of that movie actually visited my school last year. True story.