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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#14027: Jun 17th 2013 at 8:19:13 PM

Going to third that motion to avoid the rape discussion. It's a very, very bad thing, there are ongoing societal debates about whether it is better/worse/the same as murder, and that's all we need to know for the purposes of this forum. Think of it as a form of torture if it helps you to contextualise the horror, and leave it at that.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#14028: Jun 17th 2013 at 8:22:35 PM

I'll just say that yes, Catalina might have an argument and I'd listen to it, but she does not seem categorically worse than other villains in the game...granted she is a torturer, but so is Asuka of the Yakuza who isn't even a villain.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#14029: Jun 17th 2013 at 8:26:31 PM

Just a question, I'm not saying there's anyone I would like to add that fits this criteria or anything but here goes.

If a murderer is a pedophile, is that enough to qualify them for this trope or do they need more to their name?

Couchpotato20 Will kill you from Hell Since: Apr, 2011
Will kill you
#14030: Jun 17th 2013 at 8:28:49 PM

Sigh

Okay lets just not have the discussion at all about Bateman.

"I don't give a rat's ass about going to hell. I guess it's because I feel like I'm already there." -Mugen
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#14031: Jun 17th 2013 at 8:37:57 PM

[up] Look, Couchpotato, sometimes things get overlooked in a forum. We've discussed Bateman before. I don't mind adding him, but he needs a heavy caveat, particularly as Ellis's later books like Lunar Park make it clear in a very...trippy way, he was a serial killer (the book is about Ellis himself haunted by Bateman's spirit). As far as I know, though, Ellis has said the book can be taken multiple ways.

[up][up] Being a murderer period can get you consideration. A pedophile murderer can absolutely be considered if there aren't others like him. On the other hand, sometimes they won't qualify. Fritz Lang movie M features perhaps the only sympathetic child molesting murderer in cinema history

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#14032: Jun 17th 2013 at 8:40:21 PM

[up][up][up]Would depend on a few factors. Have they actually gone through with molesting kids or is it just something they fantasise about? How often have they done it, and are there other similar villains in the work? If so, how do they compare? Do they have a Freudian Excuse and/or redeeming traits

In short, while raping and murdering kids is always going to grab our attention, the standard rules still aply.

[up][up]What debate? He's on the list.

EDIT: Quite some time ago, we voted that Croup and Vandemar from Neverwhere could stay on the lit page. What we didn't do was fix their entries. Also, I don't think we ever discussed the angel Islington. Look at these:

  • From Neverwhere by Neil Gaiman:
    • Mr. Croup and Mr. Vandemar Scene by scene, these guys are demonstrably more despicable and terrifying. To put that in perspective, in their first scene, Vandemar eats a rat. Alive. This is minor. One notable example among many is the cold-blooded murder of Door's family, especially that of the mother in front of her young daughter before (possibly) disposing of her as well. It's implied they castrated Door's brother as well, in a needlessly cruel way, to ensure the family line can't continue.
    • The angel Islington. The Marquis's reminder that Lucifer was an angel is there for a reason. To wit, he watched Atlantis sink. His response: "They deserved it." After Islington got imprisoned, he hired Croup and Vandemar to get Door to open his prison. His plan is to storm Heaven, become God and get revenge at the ones, who threw him into that prison.

Islington's crimes aren't listed and Croup/Vandemar's are barely touched on. Can someone who knows the book fix this?

edited 17th Jun '13 8:48:18 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#14033: Jun 17th 2013 at 9:20:14 PM

Islington commissioned Croup and Vandemar to murder the heroine's family (except her sister, possibly, for his own purposes), he sank Atlantis when they...offended his sensibilities, which got him condemned to the London Below, imprisoned by his fellow angels. He manipulates the hero's on his side so they'll bring the heroine, Door, to him so he can use her powers to get himself back into heaven and conquer it before wreaking revenge on his heavenly brethren who don't submit. One of the creepier bits is when he says about Atlanis "These things...happen." when the her points out cities don't just sink on their own, Islington's serene face twists into an ugly mask of rage and he shrieks THEY DESERVED IT!

Islington is driven by nothing more than hate, vanity, spite and greed. I should note the fact he hired Croup and Vandemar does not remove their culpability in evil because they do this stuff for fun.

edited 17th Jun '13 9:20:25 PM by Lightysnake

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#14034: Jun 17th 2013 at 9:32:29 PM

[up]Is the sinking of Atlantis onscreen? And while Islington's end goal sounds bad, what all does he do to get there?

For that matter, what all to Croup and Vandemar do in pursuit of their mission?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#14035: Jun 17th 2013 at 9:38:13 PM

Atlantis is briefly glimpsed in a vision, IIRC, though it's later revealed it was Islington's doing.

As to both answers...lots and lots of torture and murder. Islington's manipulations lead to a LOT of death and destruction and Croup and Vandemar do plenty of it themselves. Plus the torture and murder. Vandemar is more the mindless brute while Croup is the brains (they seem one being in two bodies almost) with Croup being the more sadistic of the two.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#14036: Jun 17th 2013 at 9:52:22 PM

[up]Could you provide possible new write-ups?

I have a few days off coming up so I'll do those write-ups I promised for Mister Mind and Owlman then. Sorry about the delays everyone. I'll also provide some rewrites for a couple of characters we decided to keep, but who need better entries (Mongul II springs to mind).

edited 17th Jun '13 9:54:46 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#14037: Jun 17th 2013 at 10:03:13 PM

you want Sauron, or should I? I'll get something up for Croup and Vandemar

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#14039: Jun 18th 2013 at 5:43:49 AM

@Ambar: To shed more light on what Croup and Vandemar do specifically, other than the murder of Doors family which happens onscreen, they also force a man named Varney to work for them under threat of death. They make him apply as a bodyguard for Doors group with their plan to be for Varney to eventually betray them to Croup and Vandemar later on. However, Varney fails to be hired by Door, so the two later track him down and literally rip him to shreds. It's also implied they cannibalize him. Later they crucify and torture the Marquis de Carabas to death. Also, I haven't been able to verify this last one as I haven't been able to get the edition of the book it's featured in, but apparently there's another edition of Neverwhere with a new prologue. In that prologue, I've heard, we see the aftermath of one of Croup and Vandemars previous jobs where they slaughtered the inhabitants of a monastery. I personally can't confirm that one yet though.

edited 18th Jun '13 6:44:39 AM by OccasionalExister

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
Couchpotato20 Will kill you from Hell Since: Apr, 2011
Will kill you
#14041: Jun 18th 2013 at 11:13:52 AM

@Lightly Snake

So which one of you gonna do the write up?

Personally, I think you'd do good. Make sure you cover all points and mention the displeasing and as well as the parts which made you think as first he's an okay joe but then the brutally heinous bits about him.

"I don't give a rat's ass about going to hell. I guess it's because I feel like I'm already there." -Mugen
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#14042: Jun 18th 2013 at 11:21:55 AM

[up][up] Maybe. I know NOTHING about that show.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#14043: Jun 18th 2013 at 12:08:27 PM

I tried to make this post earlier today, but my computer crashed. Here are some write-ups and rewrites for the DC comic book subpage.

  • Most Captain Marvel villains are difficult to take seriously. That can't be said of Mister Mind, a two-inch long parasitic worm from Venus. As his people's advance scout on Earth, Mister Mind took control of Captain Marvel's cousin, Sinclair Batson, mutating him into a monster. When Captain Marvel and Mary Marvel foiled Mind's plans, the worm vowed revenge, and bodyjacking Sarge Steel of the Department of Metahuman Affairs, set in motion a plan for a nuclear holocaust. Incubating his larvae in sores within Sinclair's body, Mind took mental control of his offspring after they were born and had them in turn infest nuclear technicians, army officers, and politicians, while he himself used Sarge Steel's authority to obliterate Fairfield, Captain Marvel and Mary Marvel's hometown. Defeated before he could end the human race, Mind broke out again during the events of 52, and after mutating into his adult form of The Hyperfly, tried to devour the totality of space/time, plotting to end the multiverse. Motivated by nothing more than anger at Captain Marvel for embarassing him, Mind is as bad as The Big Red Cheese's Rogues Gallery can get.

  • Owlman from Justice League Crisis On Two Earths, was already a criminal and founding member of the Crime Syndicate of America. Upon discovering the existence of the multiverse, Owlman became enraged by the fact that, with every choice a person makes, they literally create another world in which they made the opposite choice. Determined that his choices had to affect not only his world, but all existence, Owlman journeyed to Earth-Prime, the Earth that supported the existence of all other Earths, planning to destroy all reality in a fit of existential angst. About as selfish as they come, Owlman was reviled even by his compatriots in the CSA.

Mongul II, as mentioned before, needs a rewrite. The original:

  • Mongul II, Overlord Jr. at its finest, desires to be even worse than his sadistic tyrant of a father. Mongul is first seen attacking the Green Lanterns with his sister, but when he decides he doesn't want to share the legacy, he brutally punches her head off. Later, Mongul murders a dying Sinestro Corps member to steal his ring, aiming to usurp the Corps from Sinestro himself. When he captures the planet of the Black Mercy plants, Mongul enslaves them, forcing the benevolent Mother Mercy to serve him with the forced threat of murdering her children and forcing her to eat them. After being repelled, Mongul establishes himself as a brutal tyrant even among the Sinestro Corps; he enslaves Daxam, before switching locations to Korugar, intending to brutalize the populace there as well.

The rewrite:

  • Mongul II is a case of Overlord Jr. at its worst, and has dedicated his life to aping and surpassing his equally unpleasant father, Mongul I. During his first apperance in Green Lantern, Mongul II used the Black Mercy plants to trap Hal Jordan and Oliver Queen in a fantasy world; he subsequently murdered his sister, Mongal, and kept her corpse as a trophy. When Mongul II really comes into his own, however, is after gaining a Sinestro Corps Ring (by murdering its owner). Taking control of the Black Mercy homeworld, Mongul II uses his ring to alter the genetics of the Black Mercies so that they will trap their victims in their worst nightmares, instead of their ideal fantasies. He coerces the benevolent Mother Mercy into aiding him by threatening to make her eat her own children if she does not. Defeated by the Green Lanterns, Mongul II escapes from prison, seizes control of the Sinestro Corps by killing anybody who disagrees with him (or even annoys him in the slightest), rips out Arkillo's tongue, and overruns the planet Daxam, slaughtering or enslaving the population. Beaten off by Sodam Yat and Arisia, Mongul II later arrives on Korugar, and is in the process of having the citizenry strung up along the streets when his reign is finally halted by the return of Sinestro.

How do these all read?

edited 2nd Jul '13 2:53:26 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

RLNice Bigfoot Puncher from a computer Since: Sep, 2010
Bigfoot Puncher
#14044: Jun 18th 2013 at 12:17:43 PM

I noticed that Shaw from Fast & Furious 6 is listed as a Complete Monster on the film's YMMV page. I don't really have any objections to him qualifying as one, since the film makes no attempt to redeem him in any manner whatsoever, and him running over countless innocents during the freeway chase (for no reason at all) is sufficient, in my opinion for him to qualify. If no one else believes he shouldn't be here, can we add him?

A fistful of me.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#14045: Jun 18th 2013 at 12:20:04 PM

[up][up] Seem good (though it's AFFECT not effect). And maybe Pot Hole Mongul I to Superman?

[up] Well, he IS trying to get away. Seems like a somewhat generic action villain?

EDIT: Owlman...what's he so upset exactly? So people's choices open another reality? Why so serious Owlman?

edited 18th Jun '13 12:23:45 PM by ACW

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#14046: Jun 18th 2013 at 12:26:37 PM

[up]Essentially Owlman is mad that when he makes a decision it creates another reality where he didn't make that decision. In short he's an egomaniac who needs his choices to effect all realities, not just the one he's in. He gets a whole rant about how it doesn't matter that he's rich and feared in his reality, because there are other realities where he's a slave, a nobody, a hero, or was never born in the first place.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#14047: Jun 18th 2013 at 12:31:18 PM

[up] Wow, that's ridiculous. They all look good.

Nithael (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#14048: Jun 18th 2013 at 12:53:39 PM

@14014:

If we could finish the comics page by the end of June, that'd be [awesome] (Lighty, how's the Rodin writeup coming along?). And finish the King sandbox soon after (maybe sometime over the 4th weekend, I'll sweep the YMMV pages of all King works and see who's there that's not in the sandbox).

I'll try to write something about the two I've mentioned, Atropos and George Stark, when I can.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#14049: Jun 18th 2013 at 12:56:46 PM

I don't know — Owlman seems like he has a justification for his actions, even if it's clearly insane. I suppose the question is whether we're supposed to feel that he's tragically deluded or that he's just a horrifically egocentric person.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#14050: Jun 18th 2013 at 1:02:09 PM

[up] Seems egocentrism to me.

Fighteer, where are those changes I requested for King? tongue


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