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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#140451: Dec 19th 2018 at 11:21:06 AM

[tup] Maxwell, Joker, Spidrax and Chrysis

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#140452: Dec 19th 2018 at 11:21:27 AM

For Argost, came up with this:

  • V. V. Argost is the Arch-Enemy of the Saturday family as well as the legendary Himalayan Yeti. Taking immense pleasure at murdering hikers to the mountains — two of his victims including Drew and Doyle's parents — Argost becomes obsessed with finding Kur, and acquiring its powers of controlling the world's cryptids. Succeeding at draining the power from Zak Saturday's evil counterpart Zak Monday, Argost directs his attention to him to satiate his lust for power before sending several cryptids to attack capital cities with the mass extinction of humanity being Argost's grand theatrical act.

hopeshalllive Since: Jan, 2016
#140453: Dec 19th 2018 at 11:22:15 AM

[up][up][up][up] Yeah go for the Shere Khan EP.

Edited by hopeshalllive on Dec 19th 2018 at 11:22:53 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#140454: Dec 19th 2018 at 11:24:36 AM

The first line in Nibru entity is a bit weird. Could you change the end from:

inter-dimensional alien race called the Anunnaki; his own kind considers him the most evil member of their entire species

To:

inter-dimensional alien race called the Anunnaki whose own kind considers him the most evil member of their entire species

Edited by miraculous on Dec 19th 2018 at 11:25:13 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#140455: Dec 19th 2018 at 11:29:07 AM

How's this: normally benevolent inter-dimensional alien race called the Anunnaki, which considers him the most evil member of their entire species.

That rewrite for Argost works for me, though I've not seen the show, so I can't say if it leaves anything out or not.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#140457: Dec 19th 2018 at 11:31:01 AM

[up][up]Yeah that flows better.

Edited by miraculous on Dec 19th 2018 at 11:31:55 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#140458: Dec 19th 2018 at 11:34:23 AM

If it works, here's potholed Argost:

  • The Secret Saturdays: V.V. (Vincent Vladislav) Argost is the Arch-Enemy of the Saturday family as well as the legendary Himalayan Yeti. Taking immense pleasure at murdering hikers to the mountains—two of his victims were Drew and Doyle's parents—Argost becomes obsessed with finding Kur, and acquiring its powers of controlling the world's cryptids. Succeeding at draining the power from Zak Saturday's evil counterpart Zak Monday, Argost directs his attention to him to satiate his lust for power before sending several cryptids to attack capital cities with the mass extinction of humanity being Argost's grand theatrical act.

hopeshalllive Since: Jan, 2016
#140459: Dec 19th 2018 at 11:35:19 AM

In Call of Duty World War II does Metz really count, given he has so little screen time that we don't see his personality and he serves as an effective stand in so the game can have some sort of villain.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#140460: Dec 19th 2018 at 11:48:49 AM

Another long one, this time for Webcomics:

  • Goblins: Dellyn Goblinslayer, ranger and captain of Brassmoon city's Elite Guard, is a highly sadistic Torture Technician and Fantastic Racist whose hobby was capturing live monsters, then vivisecting them in order to learn their weaknesses. One of Dellyn's preferred tortures was using knives specially designed to cause certain monsters the most excruciating pain imaginable in order to permanently mutilate them by carving insults into their skin. Other tortures included amputating limbs and, in one instance, flaying the skin off of a monster's back so that her spine was clearly visible. Planning on having his Elite Guards supplant Brassmoon's current guard to increase his political power, and mistakenly believing that a goblin army was ready to attack the city, Dellyn arranged a public execution for the goblin Fumbles, whose mind had already been shattered by Dellyn's tortures, in order to lure the other goblins out of hiding. Once they did so, Dellyn planned on his guards annihilating the "invading forces" so that the citizens of the city would back his political play. When one of his men told him that a lot of innocent bystanders would surely be caught in the crossfire, Dellyn was happy, noting that this would only make the rest of the citizens more grateful for having him around by showing them what's at risk. Dellyn also had a Yuan-Ti slave named Kin, who he abducted then raped and beat on a nightly basis, repeatedly reducing her to her last hitpoint before reviving her with healing potions. Ultimately Dellyn was nothing more than a petty sadist whose greatest desire was to be worshiped as a heroic savior by the very people he'd sacrifice without a second thought.

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#140461: Dec 19th 2018 at 11:56:04 AM

Okay, time for my EP on Shere Khan from the big-budget live-action Jungle Book movie! No, not that one, it's the one where Benedict Cumberbatch plays Khan. No, it's not that film either!

Who Is He and What Does He Do?

Shere Khan is a Bengal tiger with a burning hatred of humans. Unlike the rest of the animals in the jungle, Khan willfully violates its most sacred of laws, intentionally going after humans and their cattle due to having a lame leg. Despite his hunts risking human retribution against his fellow predators, he kills a human couple while they were away from their village. Their infant child survived and is brought a wolf pack led by Akela. Informed about the child by his hyena minion Tabaqui, Shere Khan confronts Akela's pack and demands they surrender the man-cub to him or face the consequences. The wolves declare the man-cub to be one of their own and force Shere Khan to retreat. But Khan vows to one day taste the child's blood, no matter what.

The child, now called Mowgli, is raised by the wolves over the next few years and trains for a trial to decide whether he'll join the pack for real. Meanwhile, Shere Khan continues killing cattle and begins dragging their corpses into the jungle. This is an attempt to lure man into the jungle and endanger the lives of Akela's pack. Khan briefly encounters Mowgli by a watering hole and chases him through the jungle, losing him once Mowgli falls into a spike trap set up by hunters. Shere Khan eventually recruits the Bandar-log to kidnap Mowgli after he fails his trial and is brought before him at a nearby temple. Khan taunts Mowgli by slicing at his arm first, but is stopped by Bagheera, Baloo, and Kaa before he can eat him.

Shere Khan manages to recruit some of Akela's pack members by bringing them cattle carcasses to eat. He has them challenge Akela for leadership after he failed a hunt, with the clear intention of having free-reign to hunt Mowgli. Mowgli uses man's fire to scare off Shere Khan and his supporters, but Akela disowns him for using man's weapons against his own kind. As Mowgli retreats to the man village, Shere Khan continues to put pressure on Akela's pack. He drives them further to the edge of the jungle, putting them in harm's way from the hunters coming after him.

Eventually, Mowgli decides to fight back against the tiger and recruits the help of the local elephants to lure Shere Khan out in the open. He calls Khan out into the man-village and has the elephants keep him entrapped so he can get in close and stab him multiple times. Shere Khan is mortally wounded and after Akela sacrifices himself to save Mowgli, Khan retreats back to the jungle. Mowgli comes to comfort Khan in his seemingly final moments, but this was a ploy to try one last attempt to kill the boy. Mowgli is able to act quickly and stabs Khan in the head, finally putting him out of his misery.

Redeeming Qualities?

Not much. Shere Khan willfully shirks the laws of the jungle out of either his own prejudices or greed. He hunts man and his livestock despite knowing it would endanger the lives of several other creatures in the jungle. He takes a bit sadistic pleasure when he has Mowgli brought to him by the Bandar-log, slicing Mowgli's arm for no reason except to taunt the boy while he's half-conscious. Now, Khan does have a few followers such as Tabaqui, but he doesn't show any amount of respect or care towards them. He really only feeds them to keep them on his side, and they're perfectly willing to abandon him by the end of the movie. Considering we see Khan smacking a monkey out of the way in one scene, he doesn't care much for them.

Freudian Excuse?

Now, this version of Shere Khan is crippled like his novel counterpart. His right foreleg is lame, so he has to go after humans because they're the only prey he can catch. However, it's heavily implied that Shere Khan was injured from trying to hunt humans in the first place and his bum leg doesn't seem to hinder him too heavily. Unlike say the Disney version, there's no explicit mention of him fearing that Mowgli will grow into a killer when he grows up. Even if he did, he certainly doesn't care about luring hunters into the jungle in his attempts to punish Akela for standing up to him.

Heinousness?

As talked above, Shere Khan goes above simple predatory nature by hunting forbidden prey and killing for reasons beyond food. The only other villain of note in the film is John Lockwood, a hunter Mowgli befriends in the man-village who initially takes him under his wing. However, it's soon revealed that Lockwood is more of a drunken braggart who hunts animals for sport. Lockwood is shown to have shot off one of Hathi's tusk and in the most disturbing scene of the movie, is shown to have killed and stuffed Mowgli's young wolf friend Bhoot. He also accidentally shoots Mowgli during the climax and is the one who kills Akela, but that's by complete accident. Lockwood isn't really malicious and doesn't know the animals are sapient, unlike Khan who is actively malicious.

Shere Khan also gets a bit of a Cry for the Devil in his final moments, as Mowgli's final words to him are to hope that Khan will no longer have to live with his anger. It's a big deal in the jungle for hunters to respect their prey as they die, which is what Mowgli does here. But even so, Shere Khan does try to take advantage of this opportunity to kill him one last time.

Now while this is a separate story from Disney's recent retelling, it's interesting to compare the different takes on the two tigers. It was never explored in depth why Disney's Khan was such a pariah and his fears for hating man were at least a bit more understandable. This version of Shere Khan is more sadistic and a lot more willing to put the jungle at risk in his hunt for Mowgli. But one big difference between the two? Aside from Mowgli's parents and a whole bunch of cattle, this Shere Khan doesn't actually kill anyone. Say what you will about the 2016 film, but at least that version of Khan actually straight-up murdered Akela. The Shere Khan in this film only tries to get Akela killed by proxy, which isn't quite as awful.

Verdict?

I think this version of Shere Khan comes a bit closer than his 2016 counterpart, as he actively endangers the lives of several animals in the jungle with his hunts in the man-village. He's more actively sadistic, but I'm not sure if he actually gets his paws dirty enough to count. I'll give him a weak [tup] for the moment, but I'd like to hear feedback from everyone else.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#140462: Dec 19th 2018 at 12:05:54 PM

I saw Mowgli, and I gotta say no to Share Khan. I think that too much offscreen and still standard tiger behavior.

And here is a writeup for Chrysis.

  • Assassins Creed Odyssey: Even in the monstrous world of Ancient Greece, Chrysis the priestess of Hera manages to stand out. In her first appearance, she considers treating sick patients to be sacrilege before turning out to be far worse person. She kidnapped the Misthios's younger baby sibling and tortured him/her into insanity and turning them into a loyal puppet of the Cult of Cosmos. She has done that to lots of other babies, turning them into pawns of the cult. When the Misthios confronts her, Chrysis has the house with the baby inside burned forcing the Misthios to choose between saving the baby and chasing Chrysis. If they choose to save the baby, Chrysis has an innocent man killed to set a trap for them.

I will EP a second candidate soon though he is not quite as horrible as Chrysis.

Edited by emperors on Dec 19th 2018 at 12:11:06 PM

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#140463: Dec 19th 2018 at 12:06:27 PM

I'm...not sure on Khan. Borderline Freudian Excuse plus unsure if he's heinous enough. How many people has he killed?

If he DOES count, we can add Cumberbatch to those who have both played a CM and fought one.

dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#140464: Dec 19th 2018 at 12:11:50 PM

Going to have to say [tdown] to Shere Khan. While he is the worst individual in the movie, he really doesn't do anything above and beyond standard villainy that I feel would elevate him to Complete Monster status.

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
hopeshalllive Since: Jan, 2016
#140465: Dec 19th 2018 at 12:12:06 PM

Given that this Shere Khan explicitly gives Mowgli a particularly nasty Would You Like to Hear How They Died? speech, where he gleefully recalls Mowgli's mother screaming as he attacked her and the blood flowing over him, not to mention the only reason he appears to hunt humans is just because they are easier for him to get rather than his leg preventing him from getting prey, I do believe he goes over the heinous line. [tup] to this version of Shere Khan.

Edited by hopeshalllive on Dec 19th 2018 at 12:12:44 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#140466: Dec 19th 2018 at 12:13:08 PM

[tdown]Khan

Not feeling this one. I don't think he has the deeds.

@Emperors: Looks Good. Add to the drafts.

Edited by miraculous on Dec 19th 2018 at 12:14:33 PM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
hopeshalllive Since: Jan, 2016
#140467: Dec 19th 2018 at 12:15:25 PM

And before anyone thinks about asking the proposer about Lockwood, Lockwood is a genuinely friendly man who is just doing what he sees as his job, and actually looks after Mowgli, and while he does kill Akela and wound Mowgli in the climax, both were complete accidents.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#140468: Dec 19th 2018 at 12:16:49 PM

Yeah, the new Shere Khan is suited to be a CM (he is sadistic and feared) but simply lacks the deeds.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
hopeshalllive Since: Jan, 2016
#140469: Dec 19th 2018 at 12:20:27 PM

[up] This Khan is explicitly stated to have a much larger bodycount, and the resuts are seen in that the British government (India was run by Britain at the time) sent an agent to deal with the problem, while similarly making every animal deathly angry and afraid of him. And he definetly commits more than enough acts, even if they don't succeed, to just cross the heinous line into CM territory. The fact that he hunts humans for no other reason other than they are easy, rather than having anything to do with his bad leg, is also a major strike against him, as it deprives him of any Freudian Excuse.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#140470: Dec 19th 2018 at 12:25:58 PM

[up] Well, killing humans still feels standard foe a tiger, even if it is for sport.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#140471: Dec 19th 2018 at 12:29:38 PM

In terms of onscreen bodycounts, we see Shere Khan kill both of Mowgli's parents in the opening. Much of it is a Gory Discretion Shot, but it's enough to show how ruthless he is towards his human prey. We also see the carcasses of at least two cattle that he's killed, and there's a brief flashback that shows that he also tried to hunt Lockwood, with the implication of this being the hunt that damaged his leg.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Dec 19th 2018 at 3:30:01 PM

hopeshalllive Since: Jan, 2016
#140472: Dec 19th 2018 at 12:29:50 PM

[up] Okay how about the little speech he gives to Mowgli where it is pretty clear he dragged out his killing of Mowgli's biological mother for no other reason other than to be sadistic. "You know, I can still hear your mother's screams, the night I took her life." In very stark contrast to 2016! Shere Khan, who killed that Mowgli's father with a quick throat bite, which is usually how big cat kills are, being very quick, the fact that Khan uses the word "screams" instead of just "scream" indicates that he intentionally dragged out the kill, rather than killing her quickly for no other reason other than to make her suffer.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
hopeshalllive Since: Jan, 2016
#140474: Dec 19th 2018 at 12:32:16 PM

[up][up] And Khan is explicitly stated to have killed more humans. Off Screen Villainy is allowed if we see the effects of it, and we see it given how terrified the villagers are of Khan in particular, and also in that all of the animals hate him.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#140475: Dec 19th 2018 at 12:32:45 PM

Weak [tup] to Khan, it seems like he establishes a pattern.


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