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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Couchpotato20 Will kill you from Hell Since: Apr, 2011
Will kill you
#14001: Jun 17th 2013 at 8:00:02 AM

Lots of pages and arguments I missed so if it alright can someone give me an update on where we're at with Sauron being a complete monster?

Last I checked the scoreboard was 20 [tup] 11 [tdown] and one undecided.

"I don't give a rat's ass about going to hell. I guess it's because I feel like I'm already there." -Mugen
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#14002: Jun 17th 2013 at 8:51:22 AM

If we could finish the comics page by the end of June, that'd be [awesome] (Lighty, how's the Rodin writeup coming along?). And finish the King sandbox soon after (maybe sometime over the 4th weekend, I'll sweep the YMMV pages of all King works and see who's there that's not in the sandbox).

EDIT: Huh, looks like the King Sandbox has been moved. Well, I'll still do the sweep to either add who we missed or clean the YMM Vs.

edited 17th Jun '13 10:40:52 AM by ACW

AnewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#14003: Jun 17th 2013 at 11:11:41 AM

@Ambar: I don't mean to suggest that Abigail has any sort of excuse or justification. I hated her when I first saw The Crucible and I hate her everytime I re-watch it. But all times, Danforth still comes off as even worse because he's a grown adult who is completely in his right mind when he's putting people to death, and he continues to do so even after Abigail has left the story. Abigail got the ball rolling, but Danforth chose not to stop it. And the ending in which he sentences Proctor for not signing the confession and then the whole thing with the lord's prayer suggests that a holy cause doesn't even matter anymore - Danforth decides who's a witch and who's not simply because he can.

He's heinous by the standards of the story because the standards of the story were based on the idea that "Mccarthyism = witch hunting which = bad." Those are the morals of the story that the writer wanted to get out, and Danforth gets the worst of it in the narrative because of this. Everyone in the story either fears him or hates him (which is not the case with Abigail, since she's a Villain with Good Publicity Bitch in Sheep's Clothing who has lots of friends) and as a Mccarthy stand-in, he's the main subject of the message "see this? It needs to stop!"

The Crucible doesn't really need to have any of it's antagonists get a pass for this trope since it's just a cautionary tale, but my point still stands that Danforth edges out as being the worst of the worst in this story.

I believe the idea would be that, as a stand-in for Mc Carthy in an anti-Mc Carthyist work, he would be more likely to be depicted totally unsympathetically than anyone else.

Exactly this.

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#14004: Jun 17th 2013 at 11:47:21 AM

We were talking about Power Rangers a while ago, right? Well, I am not entirely sure if Ivan Ooze counts. He does not have any redeeming qualities or anything, but to me he came off as a standard villain. He was a Bad Boss and a bully prone to You Have Failed Me and You Have Outlived Your Usefullness, but other than that, I saw him as a standard villain. He was also pretty comical. His only stand out moments were what he did to Zordon, trying to get the parents to commit suicide, and killing his tengoo wariors after they failed him.

jjj
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#14005: Jun 17th 2013 at 12:29:09 PM

The suicide pushes him over the edge for me

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#14006: Jun 17th 2013 at 12:33:30 PM

Well, he's a movie villain. So it's harder to compare him to the show versions as is. He's definitely a Bad Boss. For the parent thing, it's just typical mass genocide like regular villains.

He's somewhat heinous, but doesn't seem anything more than standard dickish villainy to me.

I'm [tdown] on him. Close, but no cigar.

Shadow?
32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#14007: Jun 17th 2013 at 12:36:55 PM

@14007 Actually, while moving to eliminate a Zero Context Example in general is admirable, it can be problematic with this trope because of the Flame War potential we've seen with Complete Monster, plus it not always being clear whether such a deletion is due to the cleanup or something else.

Plus, TV Rulez Again gives the posters here an opportunity to do an argument/rewrite if someone here is familiar with the example in question. Really, it's a combination of affording folks here an opportunity to correct the issue as well as making sure their actions are correctly understood.

That said, regarding @13958 and @13969, I agree with the proposed cuts. For your question in @13969, role-plays are no different than any other type of work when it comes to how Complete Monster is used.

Since there was no objection to my proposal for Bones, here's my proposed rewrite of the Gravedigger.

  • The Gravedigger from Bones is a dark cross between a serial killer and a serial kidnapper. Her modus operandi is to sneak up on victims, knock them out with a custom-made stun gun, and bury them in a hidden container with 24 hours of air - either her ransom is paid, or the victims die. She's introduced by doing this on Dr. Brennan - not because Brennan is a threat, but just because she can. She also traps Dr. Hodgins at the same time (cutting the available air to around 12 hours) just because he witnessed the kidnapping. When she reappears, she then tries to similarly bury Booth alive to destroy evidence against her, plus tries to kill Brennan and Booth again while she's at it. She also kills a private investigator with her stun gun because she thinks that there's a chance that he might find her in the future. Several of her other victims are also sought, with the cruel circumstances behind them all played up. In the end, she admits that she just enjoyed killing people and the effects that Buried Alive has on victims; the ransom money was immaterial to her.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#14008: Jun 17th 2013 at 12:43:17 PM

[up] Good stuff. Does she have a real name? I vaguely recall that episode (IIRC she turned out to be one of the FBI agents assigned to the case) but can't remember that detail.

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#14009: Jun 17th 2013 at 12:53:30 PM

The Gravedigger? Yeah, her real name is Heather Taffet. She's a US Attorney, and she makes her actual appearance (as opposed to the popular Shadowy Figure) in the episode where Booth is kidnapped. It's also the same episode where they figure out who she is an arrest her - she became the lead prosecutor in the Gravedigger case so that she could find and destroy evidence.

I didn't include that in the writeup because kidnapping, attempted murder (and one on-screen killing subject to Gory Discretion Shot), and psychological torture struck me as more important than any of that detail.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#14010: Jun 17th 2013 at 1:11:55 PM

I went through the DCAU and Cartoon Netowrk subpages and adjusted the YMM Vs. However: From the Ben 10 Ultimate Alien YMMV, besides Aggregor (the only one listed on the Cartoon Network Monster page), we have:

Also, Addwagia in "Where the Magic Happens", who wiped out a whole species of magic users including Charmcaster's parents just so he could rule their dimension and be in control of all magic. Some in the Fan Dumb think Charmcaster falls into this trope too once she replaces Addwagia, by trying to sacrifice thousands of lives to a cthulu monster, but she's called on it by her father, is treated sympathetically in-story after her Villainous BSoD, and is trying to get her act together, so this, coupled with statments from Word of God saying she isn't truly evil and is supposed to be a gray-shaded Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds, makes it highly unlikely.
  • Morgg from "Nor Iron Bars a Cage" also qualifies. He hates a guy for mentoring and reforming other prisoners in Incarcecon and just waits for an opportunity to murder him first chance he gets, intending to follow up by murdering the 11 year old boy the guy spent a long time reforming to dispose of a witness. After becoming warden, he turns the prison into a slave labor camp to mine drugs for him to sell, having no problem offing anyone who crosses him and making it look like an accident. The guy is such a monster that likely the only reason Ben and Gwen stop Kevin from killing him is to avoid Kevin held accountable for murder.
Cut?

edited 17th Jun '13 1:32:30 PM by ACW

Couchpotato20 Will kill you from Hell Since: Apr, 2011
Will kill you
#14011: Jun 17th 2013 at 1:57:30 PM

What's this talk about American Psycho Bateman being ambiguous?

Back on page 141 we all know how he committed several unbelievably heinous misdeeds.

Also just to clarify: Word of God said bateman did commit those murders but they didn't happen the way he describes they did.

"I don't give a rat's ass about going to hell. I guess it's because I feel like I'm already there." -Mugen
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#14012: Jun 17th 2013 at 2:03:38 PM

That's the issue. Word of God on this subject has been...contradictory to say the least. It ends up as quite ambiguous if he's killed anyone. That said, I think Bateman should count on the chances he actually is this killer, but we should give a heavy caveat to his writeup.

anyways, Sauron won the vote for a solid margin. Ambar and I will work on his writeup.

edited 17th Jun '13 2:13:58 PM by Lightysnake

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#14013: Jun 17th 2013 at 2:07:10 PM

"Back on page 141 we all know how he committed several unbelievably heinous misdeeds".

What is this we you speak of?

edited 17th Jun '13 2:07:22 PM by Hodor

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Couchpotato20 Will kill you from Hell Since: Apr, 2011
Will kill you
#14014: Jun 17th 2013 at 2:08:11 PM

@Lightly Snake

Contradictory..how though? I've only seen how talk from the author on how Bateman imagined the bizarre ways he killed people.

"I don't give a rat's ass about going to hell. I guess it's because I feel like I'm already there." -Mugen
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#14015: Jun 17th 2013 at 2:50:31 PM

@Anew Man

The fact that Abigail is a Villain with Good Publicity does not make Danforth worse than she is. It makes her a better actor than Danforth, nothing more. Those who know she's a fake are revolted by her. And you still aren't making a great argument for his being "heinous by the standards of story". Yes, the play/film's idea is that witch hunting is bad. The people involved in the witch hunts include Danforth, Hathorne, Abigail, the professional witch hunter the town brings in, and oh, the entire freaking population of Salem.

As to the notion that everybody in the movie hates/fears Danforth, that's also crock. Some of the townsfolk flat out use Danforth, having him kill off people whose property they want, or who they've never liked.

The whole point of The Crucible is that responsibility for witch-hunts, like the ones in Salem and during the McCarthy era is shared among all those who participate. Classing any one person as a CM, and holding them solely responsible, defeats the entire message.

@Couchpotato

That's an old, settled debate on Bateman. Kindly let it lie in peace.

edited 17th Jun '13 2:50:56 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#14016: Jun 17th 2013 at 4:15:24 PM

[up] ...yeah, that's convinced me. Sorry Anew, but switching my vote to "nobody fits." It is pretty much the point that everyone is equally-culpable, after all. Apart from the accused and Rev. Hale, of course.

edited 17th Jun '13 4:16:09 PM by HamburgerTime

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#14017: Jun 17th 2013 at 4:35:44 PM

@14019 Would this work as an edit reason: "Cut for having no context; if anyone wants to re-add, discuss it here first."

AnewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#14019: Jun 17th 2013 at 6:03:00 PM

Those who know she's a fake are revolted by her.

Except for the other girls, who even join her in throwing one of their own under the bus, which is what eventually leads to the "GOD IS DEAD!" moment.

As to the notion that everybody in the movie hates/fears Danforth, that's also crock. Some of the townsfolk flat out use Danforth, having him kill off people whose property they want, or who they've never liked.

And Danforth has them killed, next to no questions asked.

The whole point of The Crucible is that responsibility for witch-hunts, like the ones in Salem and during the Mc Carthy era is shared among all those who participate. Classing any one person as a CM, and holding them solely responsible, defeats the entire message.

Sorry Anew, but switching my vote to "nobody fits." It is pretty much the point that everyone is equally-culpable, after all.

Your'e actually absolutely correct here. In fact, this is actually stated in the work itself. In the play, a line that was cut was the film was what followed "GOD IS DEAD!", which was this:

Proctor: A fire, a fire is burning! I hear the boot of Lucifer, I see his filthy face. And it is my face and yours, Danforth. For them that quail now when you know in all your black hearts that this be fraud. God damns our kind especially, and we will burn, we will burn together!

So I'll concede here. No one person counts as a CM in The Crucible.

edited 17th Jun '13 6:07:13 PM by AnewMan

LLCJ Since: Feb, 2013
#14020: Jun 17th 2013 at 6:41:30 PM

Catalina (from Grand Theft Auto III) was removed? Why? She is not so heinous? In my opinion, she qualifies due to his actions in the prequel (Grand Theft Auto San Andreas). During his missions, she has turned a simple robbery into a massacre (killing people randomly), even tortures/rapes CJ. Therefore, she is more than a murderer, practically a female version of Mr. Blonde from Reservoir Dogs.

[down] Torture and/or rape is more heinous than murder. Murder is committed by any Big Bad in the series. (Sonny Forelli from Vice City, Dimitri from Grand Theft Auto IV,...) Catalina, however, is more than that.

edited 17th Jun '13 7:24:18 PM by LLCJ

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#14021: Jun 17th 2013 at 6:57:59 PM

[up] Isn't that one of those works where every single person would be a CM in any other story, though?

Couchpotato20 Will kill you from Hell Since: Apr, 2011
Will kill you
#14022: Jun 17th 2013 at 7:06:27 PM

@Ambar

Maaaan. Fine. When we're all caffeinated to hell and want ta get lots of work done on some other day can we discuss it?

"I don't give a rat's ass about going to hell. I guess it's because I feel like I'm already there." -Mugen
bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#14023: Jun 17th 2013 at 7:48:05 PM

[up][up][up] I never really understood why rape is sometimes considered worse than murder, sure it;s a very very bad thing, but I would wether be raped than murdered. It can be especially bad if you rape AND murder somone though. I must say though, I doubt that any of those games have rape in them though, as I was told it was one of the few things you can't do in those games. Though I guess that only pertains to the main characters.

jjj
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#14024: Jun 17th 2013 at 7:53:43 PM

[up] I think it's because rape is the one crime that can never be justified. People steal to survive, kill in self-defense, but there's no real sympathetic reason to rape someone. Justifiable homicide is a valid defense in court, after all; justifiable sexual assault is not.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#14025: Jun 17th 2013 at 8:00:15 PM

[up][up]Let's....avoid this discussion. Please.


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