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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#139151: Dec 8th 2018 at 5:14:00 AM

[tup] Corbin and Page

Has anyone ever checked the Pokemon Adventure series? I wonder if Archie is a possible candidate considering his role there is way worse then both game and anime.

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#139152: Dec 8th 2018 at 5:20:09 AM

Do you mean the manga pokemon adventure ?

Archie got a redemption in death if I rember correctly.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
lrrose Since: Jul, 2009
TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#139154: Dec 8th 2018 at 5:58:50 AM

I thought it was a more Alas, Poor Villain momemnt, maybe I'm mistaken since I've read it a while ago.

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
konekootome the cat who wanders from In the middle of something for once Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Californicating
the cat who wanders
#139155: Dec 8th 2018 at 6:45:18 AM

The Avatar: The Last Airbender fanfic Foxfire has a truly heinous villain in Hongqi. To give background, in Ba Sing Se an amnesiac Zuko/Li comes across a spirit known as Woman in White, a ghost of women driven to suicide by her lover which was Hongqi. This Woman in White was a originally a normal if beautiful woman from the Lower Ring who fell in love with Hongqi, the son of a Nouveau Riche merchant. Hongqi, who grew up with a loving family and never had to work for anything outside his earthbending, took the woman as a mistress due to her low rank and started a family together. Due to her low ranking, Hongqi kept his family a secret to keep his marriage prospects open.

Things soured when Hongqi grew bored of playing family with a poor woman. He wanted a rich wife but refused the possibility of having his mistress move on from him. To make sure she wouldn't ever find anyone else, Hongqi disfigured the woman with a hideous Glasgow Grin. In Ba Sing Se society, a minor scratch on the face would destroy a woman's marriage prospects despite her high breeding. A Glasgow Grin would have turned the woman into a pariah. But to rub salt in the wound, Hongi laid a final blow by taking the woman's children. The woman was forbidden to ever to see her children again before being kicked back to the Lower Ring.

Without her children, the woman committed suicide by drowning. As a Woman in White she haunted a bridge outside the Ba Sing Se library, luring unfaithful lovers and drowning them in misplaced revenge due to Hongqi being out of her reach.

But not death spared the Woman in White from further torment.

Hongqi found a very aristocratic young bride, who was the daughter of prestigious bankers descending from the founding of Ba Sing Se. He didn't want his future in-laws finding out that he already has bastard children.

So one night, Hongqi takes his children, who were toddlers, to the Lower Ring; specifically to the Pottery Quarter. The Pottery Quarter has a public kiln for its residents take their trade from and as result, it always burns. The kiln is built to be a distance away the apartments, so the district wouldn't burn down if there was any accidents with the kiln. Unfortunately that meant nobody would hear.

In the middle of the night, when the kiln was empty Hongqi commits his most heinous act. Hongqi threw his young children into the kiln and earthbended it shut. So no one heard the children's screams as they were burned alive. Hongqi just walked away, with the crime scene being so far away from his home in the Upper Ring and earthbending super common, no one should have ever it was him. Hongqi would have gotten away with murder. The following morning, the Pottery Quarter woke up to a horrible smell. A smell very familiar with them due to them being refugees fleeing the encroaching Fire Nation invasion: burning bodies.

Every earthbender in the quarter was woken up to help open the kiln. Li was at first a suspect due to it being an Open Secret that he was a firebender, which is ignored due to his popularity with the residents. Li is quickly dismissed as suspect when he was found to be writing all night with his adoptive surrogate family. Li is then quickly recruited to discreetly put out the fire before anyone else shows up. Li manages to take the heat and energy from the fire so quickly that frost forms on the kiln due to remaining water vapor and the kiln cracking from thermal shock.

But once the earthbenders show up, they open the kiln...and find the small bones of two young children.

The District is horrified and distraught that someone would due such a thing and by the end of the day word spends of that happened. Unfortunately, word gets to the Woman in White. Burning with despair at the loss of her beloved children's lives, hatred for their murderer and the man who destroyed her, the Woman in White was transformed.

With her burning hatred, the Woman in White ascended into becoming a more powerful spirit, a particular urban legend. The Woman in White transformed into a Kuchisake-Onna, the Slit-Faced woman.

As a Woman in White she already had a body-count, as a Kuchisake-Onna was unstoppable. The Dai Li attempted to stop her, but she overtakes them and nearly kills them all. Due to her formerly being Woman in White, she could now go to anywhere connected to the place she drowned in. Which is a massive underground resevoir which connects to the Lower Ring, Middle Ring and Lake Laogai.

The only way for her to be stopped is punish the man who ruined her and murdered her children. While Li and the Dai Li were happy to comply with that on principle alone, with the Kuchisake-Onna telling them the name of her murderer they jumped on the chance of getting her to stop and prevent more loss of life.

While the Kuchisake-Onna was the antagonist for this arc, she would have not existed if it wasn't for the monstrous actions of Hongqi.

While Hongqi was caught and arrested, it doesn't erase the cruelty of his actions and complete lack of remorse.

Which is why Hongi deserves to be called a Complete Monster and join his foul brethren on the page as an example.

Devoted2Nintendo Since: Jul, 2018
#139156: Dec 8th 2018 at 6:47:43 AM

Edited by Devoted2Nintendo on Dec 8th 2018 at 11:10:48 AM

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#139157: Dec 8th 2018 at 6:48:49 AM

@konekotoome Nice summary. But you can do an EP like this:

What's the Work

Describes us what's the work

Who is He/What Has He Done

Describe the details on what the crimes the character has done

Freudian Excuse/Mitigating Factors

Describes the things that detracts your characters becoming a CM (Such as having loved ones, Legitimate Freudian Excuse on his/her actions... etc etc)

Heinous Standard

Describe the heinous standard of the work and describe the villains who also stands out other than your characters.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
11111001011 11111001011 from Peachtree City, GA Since: Dec, 2018 Relationship Status: Abstaining
11111001011
#139158: Dec 8th 2018 at 6:52:14 AM

There is a villain I was planning to propose, but then I remembered that his death was actually met with sadness, and he was still considered a friend by the heroes, who tried to redeem him. Why is Alas, Poor Villain considered a disqualifier?

Help me!
konekootome the cat who wanders from In the middle of something for once Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Californicating
the cat who wanders
#139159: Dec 8th 2018 at 6:55:15 AM

[tup] yes to Corbin, Metzger and Jade Eyes. Oh thank you. I didn't realize until after I posted and checked the other pages. I will go fix it.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#139160: Dec 8th 2018 at 7:06:38 AM

[up][up] Basically, because to be a CM, a villain can't be redeemed or treated sympathetically.

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#139161: Dec 8th 2018 at 7:08:08 AM

[tup] Corbin. I was just discussing earlier with miraculous my confusion on why so many adult cartoons have to be vulgar Black Comedys, and how the protagonists always have to be borderline sociopaths.

11111001011 11111001011 from Peachtree City, GA Since: Dec, 2018 Relationship Status: Abstaining
11111001011
#139162: Dec 8th 2018 at 7:16:59 AM

[up][up]Even Evil Can Be Loved isn't a disqualifier, nor is having sympathetic traits.

Help me!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#139163: Dec 8th 2018 at 7:18:33 AM

@111: Who was the villain and from what work

@User: I feel like that's such a waste of potentail too. The idea of an adult adventure or fantasy cartoon actually sounds kinda cool.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
11111001011 11111001011 from Peachtree City, GA Since: Dec, 2018 Relationship Status: Abstaining
11111001011
#139164: Dec 8th 2018 at 7:21:39 AM

The villain was Balthasar from Pokémon Tales.

Help me!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#139165: Dec 8th 2018 at 7:22:02 AM

[up][up][up] Even Evil Can Be Loved is indeed not disqualifying; but having sympathetic traits IS, unless they're explicitly tossed aside (case in point: Ego did care for Meredith, but so he wouldn't be distracted from his self-given role, decides to kill her, and not even kill her painlessly, but to give her cancer).

Edited by ACW on Dec 8th 2018 at 10:23:01 AM

11111001011 11111001011 from Peachtree City, GA Since: Dec, 2018 Relationship Status: Abstaining
11111001011
#139166: Dec 8th 2018 at 7:25:13 AM

I was thinking more along the lines of a sympathetic backstory.

Help me!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#139167: Dec 8th 2018 at 7:33:05 AM

Ah, Freudian Excuse is DEFINITELY a case-by-case thing, and not everyone will agree on whether it's disqualifying or not.

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
Devoted2Nintendo Since: Jul, 2018
#139169: Dec 8th 2018 at 7:46:30 AM

[up][up][up] From what I understand, what really matters is if their sympathetic backstory/Freudian Excuse is enough to sufficiently justify their behavior, or at the very least, make their actions and the way they turned out somewhat understandable. For example, I actually thought Joseph/Cartaphilus from The Ancient Magus' Bride might count because despite his genuinely awful situation and the sympathy he's shown at the end of the story (or at least, from what's adapted so far), I didn't personally think it justified his worst actions (and I still don't really believe it does). However, after talking about it here a bit, I've kind of accepted that because he's cursed to live forever, and in a constantly decaying body which causes him quite a bit of pain, it's kind of easy to see why his morals would decay along with his body if it means putting an end to his predicament. It makes him fall just a little short of being 100% malicious, especially since he was a genuinely good guy before that and really didn't deserve that fate, even though he ended up going way too far because of it.

So in short, it's complicated, but if you believe any villains in question have sympathetic backstories that don't mitigate their actions at all, it can't hurt to try bringing them up. Sometimes that's the only way to know for sure what other people think of them.

Ironically, I feel like Elfen Lied Fan was making a list of characters specifically for those that fall under Freudian Excuse Is No Excuse. Checking that out to find characters you're familiar with who have insufficient reasoning and excuses for their actions might make the distinction a bit more clear.

Edited by Devoted2Nintendo on Dec 8th 2018 at 10:54:16 AM

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#139170: Dec 8th 2018 at 7:53:25 AM

[tup] to the above

As promised. May be my last EP of before New Year's Eve, depending on if I'm still chickenshit about revisiting two others or if I find someone else before then.

Dream Daddy is a dating simulator in which you are a single dad who has just moved to the town of Maple Bay following the death of his partner. Your daughter Amanda encourages you to get out of your shell and meet someone. Fortunately there happens to be quite a number of eligible single fathers. One of these dating options and a fairly popular one is Joseph Christiansen, your next door neighbour and a married charismatic youth minister. If you go his route and pursue an affair with him, the standard endings don't have you end up with Joseph no matter what with him always staying with his family...(and before you ask, no religious homophobia isn't an issue here). I first found this title whilst I was on a Doki Doki binge.

If you find the cult ending, that's a whole other story. The "Cult Ending" is a secret ending that isn't in the game proper and can only be found through data-mining through the games files. It's one of those The Ending Changes Everything deals and may change players perspective of Joseph (and has considering his Memetic Psychopath status). A note tells the player that the creators (Game Grumps) clarifies the ending was intended for the final game but is considered mon canon and made it deliberate that the player can't find it unless they looked for it. It also turns this wholesome dating sim into a demonic/lovecraftian horror story.

Okay so in this ending, after successfully romancing Joseph, the player wakes up in a dungeon and are greeted by Joseph wearing dark robes. Joseph is also shown to have mind reading powers and explains that this dungeon is in fact an Eldritch Location under the town. He tells the player that it's no coincidence that this down just happens to have an abundance of single dads or down on their luck families. Joseph explains that he's been systematically ruining people's lives and is responsible for a series of disappearances and murders; he also reveals he's a man of a different cloth and worships a being that is not to subtly implied to Cthulhu or Father Dagon.

We also find out that Joseph kids are not his kids but rather demonic vessel minions and among the lives he's been ruining is his wife Mary, turning her into an alcoholic. Joseph leaves, stating his intent to kill one of the local dads before Mary arrives to help the player escape. The player finds himself running through the dungeons for days being chased by Joseph's "kids" before passing out and seemingly waking up back at his house with his daughter. It doesn't take him long to realize this is an illusion controlled by Joseph himself before he wakes up back in the dungeon. Joseph tries to strangle the player to death only for Mary (by the way I just realized mid-writing this the pun of "Mary and Joseph") stabs Joseph and leaves him to be fed on by "his" demonic children.

The secret ending concludes with the player waking up with seemingly everything being a dream. Mary approaches the player and explains that Joseph's yacht has sank, the player was rescued from the wreckage and he's wanted for embezzling church funds but has never been found. She also sent their children to stay with her parents until everything blows over. A detective the player saw before they passed out reveals that everything the player saw was real and that his wife disappeared in this town due to mysterious circumstances.

Okay redeeming qualities or Freudian Excuse ? Joseph in the game proper clearly cares about his kids and is a fairly stand up guy despite his faults. The Cult ending warps this into him being Faux Affably Evil, deliciously hammy and seeing "his" as demonic lapdogs. He also describes himself as "Sadistic ? Dastardly ? I prefer wrathful myself." He likes to crack dark or lame jokes that goes with the shtick. He's been ruining and/or taking the lives of others so that h can feed the despair to his master for his great return. He also implies that he is a Humanoid Abomination talked about in the game called "The Dover Ghost". However he does have what can be seen as an Even Evil Has Standards moment where the player threatens him not to harm his daughter and he says "Don't worry about her, have you seen my pedigree ? Besides if I do my job right I won't have to." And there's also the fact he mentions that his operations have been going back for generations, dating to his ancient ancestors. My only issue is possible Offscreen Villainy as he doesn't do all that much but provide a Cerebus Retcon for the entire game.

Again this is based off of an ending that isn't considered canon or part of the main game. It can only be found by snooping around the game files; on one hand the "It's an alternate continuity" clause might be at work here, but at the same time it feels like a combination of a joke ending, and lackluster gaming pasta brought to life. In any case this ending reveals and tells a different story than the one the player would get in the main game without the datamining.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
11111001011 11111001011 from Peachtree City, GA Since: Dec, 2018 Relationship Status: Abstaining
11111001011
#139171: Dec 8th 2018 at 7:57:11 AM

[up][up] That's actually what I talked about with Memphis. His backstory, though sympathetic, didn't exactly serve as an adequate justification for his crimes.

Help me!
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#139172: Dec 8th 2018 at 8:04:29 AM

@ miraculous, I think its a cultural attitude in the West towards animation where its seen as entertainment for children or a tool to deliver crude humor for adults, while in Japan animation is used for a variety of different stories. Though I think in the last 20 years these attitudes are changing, there is more adult animation now then there was in the past and even kids animation is far more complex now then it was in the 80s when cartoons glorified toy commercials and the 70s when censorship for animation was really high.

I remember someone mentioned a serial sex abuser from Bojack Horseman who was played straight, but I also remember the heinous standard for that show is pretty high, all things considered (Bojack has certainly done some questionable things during this show). But we now have stuff like the Castlevania cartoon and we may have the Devil May Cry cartoon coming out in the near future.

I have been looking into European animation, there was a German animated film called Felidae:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felidae_(film)

The main villain is a talking cat (its an R-rated talking animal movie) who is secretly a serial killer and wants to destroy the human race. Though I remember him having a pretty good FE and he had an Alas, Poor Villain death.

I also may have found another 90s novel monster, I can propose him around Christmas when I have more free time to read his novel appearances.

Also yes to Page.

Edited by Overlord on Dec 8th 2018 at 8:05:18 AM

11111001011 11111001011 from Peachtree City, GA Since: Dec, 2018 Relationship Status: Abstaining
11111001011
#139173: Dec 8th 2018 at 8:07:00 AM

I've had a bit of trouble with this trope, so I'd like to ask a few questions:

  • What is the baseline standard for heinousness? How far does a character have to go over it?
  • What's the line we draw at ridiculousness before an action is deemed too ridiculous to take seriously?

Help me!
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#139174: Dec 8th 2018 at 8:17:47 AM

[up] A lot of this context, the lighter the setting, the easier it is to stand out, the darker the setting, the harder it is to stand out. I think the minimum baseline is 3 to 5 murders and or rapes, but if those also involve torture, that makes them even worse. There is also a matter of resources, a loner serial killer is going to have fewer resources then a demon lord or a galactic emperor would.

I can suggest some stuff if you are willing to look at something longer. I think there is an overlooked cartoon from the 80s that may have a monster in it, but its pretty long (65 episodes), but the main villain sounds pretty bad for an 80s cartoon.

Also when a villain's actions are serious or not depends on context. If the story beat is serious, like a serial killer killing people for his own sick amusement, then its serious, if its a comedic story beat, the serial killer is killing people for his own sick amusement by subjecting people to Justin Bieber music videoes till they go crazy and die, that is played for laughs.

Edited by Overlord on Dec 8th 2018 at 8:20:54 AM

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#139175: Dec 8th 2018 at 8:24:45 AM

@Overlord Can you PM me about that... I'm interested and I'm rarely covering some Western Animation villain which is pretty hard for me. Had no interest with Live Action TV with a few exceptions.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."

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