During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
The ironic part? People are adverse to most kids' shows having a Complete Monster, yet the only example from an adult show in the Western Animation section is the Lord High Commander from Final Space.
Help me!My family and I have been sick for the past few days. I sleep most of the day away, I'm constantly tired, my throat is so sore it hurts when I swallow, I have a minor headache in my forehead (and my scalp hurts like I have pimples on it or something), I keep waking up far too early in the morning, and we have already exhausted all of our medicine.
jjjSpeaking of Kid's show... I'd be honest if I almost propose someone from frickin Tom and Jerry the Nutcracker because someone made a proposal in other wiki regarding it...Until I watched the movie and realize the post is a frickin joke. I've been frickin duped XD
Also, @bobg Sorry to hear that. Hope you will feel better soon.
P.S. if there's no objection, I'll add the condensed entry of Fabian Cortez in the drafts and here's how it looks like now:
Fabian Cortez is the leader of the defunct Upstarts, a group of mutants that hunted and killed other mutants for points and bragging rights in Selene's Upstarts competition. In his first outing, he puts together the Acolytes and tries to sway Magneto back towards taking an antagonistic stance against humanity. When Magneto is wounded, Cortez uses his own powers to make him dependent on his treatment under the pretense he was helping him. Cortez's machinations lead to the U.S. and Russia destroying Asteroid M with a plasma cannon which resulted the deaths of his entire first group of Acolytes including his own sister. When Magneto returns and Cortez loses his top spot in the competition, he goes to Genosha and inspire the mutants there to rise up against their oppressive human government, causing a bloody civil war. At the same time, he kidnaps Magneto's infant granddaughter so he can use her as a Human Shield against the X-Men, the Avengers, and Exodus in an attempt to kill as many of the Avengers as possible. When Magneto becomes the ruler of Genosha and learns the hidden technology that can restore his power levels, Cortez betrays him by amping up ex-Acolytes to send against him. A supremacist and a backstabber at its finest, Cortez committed his despicable crimes in order to score points in a competition.
I'm going to figure out on how to trim Stryker at a later time... Iirc, Ravok was the one who E Pd him.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."Fun thing is. My current candidate did not only bodyjack someone (dunno how you count a Fusion Dance that ends with a individual following someone), but souljack people.
Setting?
Persona -trinity soul- is a very loose sequel to Persona 3. In practique, Trinity Soul is clearly trying to be it's own thing while working with P3 concepts such as the Apathy Syndrome, Artificial Persona Users and yes, a Robot Girl too.
And Akihiko is there, but he's still a bishie instead of the giant hunk that he's in the Arena games.
And more infamously, Trinity Soul had a plot point that straight up contradicts Persona 2 (Adults can't use Persona. Which makes no sense given P2).
Now. I watched it and...It was good, the Finale was messy and didn't made full sense, but it finished the personal drama of the Kanzato brothers and I cried. I legit recommend this series, seriously.
Ten years ago, the Kanzato brother lose their parents and their little sister.
Shin and Jun Kanzato return to their birth city Ayanagi to live with their older brother Ryou, as their aunt has finally found herself a boyfriend and they don't want to get in her way. However, Ryou is a very cold individual who quickly makes it known that he wants them to leave as soon as possible.
The reasons are Personas. And Marebito, a cult like organization founded for this guy.
Who is Keisuke Komatsubara?
Keisuke was a neurologist interesed in the concept of Personas, a interest which led him to perform increasingly dangerous experiments with his daughter, Ayane Komatsubara. The experiments were so harsh that eventually, Ayane killed herself by jumping to the ocean in front of the scientists working with her father, the Kanzato parents.
Ayane' soul survived, turning her in a vengeful spirit with a Persona. Ayane came to Ayanagi City ten years before the series to get her revenge against the scientist. She suceeded at killing the Kanzato fathers but she was defeated for Shin' early awakening of his Persona causing her to lose control and unleash a wave of Apathy Syndrome, causing widespread destruction as drivers and pilots succumbed to it, killing a lot of people.
Keisuke was among the survivors, doing a job as a seemingly good samaritan doctor. When he found that Jun and Yuki Kanzato were harmed, he did convince Ryo to sacrifice Yuki' life to save his brother, however, Keisuke used the operation to carry a operation where he would fuse part of Yuki' brain with her brother, causing her to still "live" inside him and ensuring that both develop special Persona that would be useful for Keisuke.
After it, Keisuke changed his name for Mareya Kujou and faked his death, allowing his own Persona to consume him to extend his own life by become a hybrid of Persona and human.
He founded Marebito, a group made up of orphans from the destruction ten years earlier. He turned them into Articial Persona Users (just like P3 Strega, they have persona but have to took drugs to keep themselves alive, shortening their own lifespam) and convinced them to strenght themselves by attacking other possible persona users, awakaning their Persona and devouring said newborn persona. The process was extremely gross and violent, ending in the Reverse cases, which results in either the victim being turned inside out in a bloody mess (thanks Gory Discretion Shot for this) or in the victim ending in a catathonic state.
Standing behind the scenes for a lot of the series as a projection of himself while his body is in a capsule, Keisuke brutally kills a member of Marebito trying to run away from the group. At the end of the first cour, he ends up fighting Ryo Kanzato in a fight that ends with Keisuke being forced to return to his capsule while Ryo' Persona goes Berserk (and kills his childhood friend Eiko Nikaido, but that's not really Keisuke' plan).
Near the climax, in the aptly title Wham Episode Named Cruelty and following. The Awful Truth behind Marebito is revealed, they all are meant to be a Human Sacrifice to "revive" Ayane. All the people that they killed and all those Persona are meant to be fuel for her revival. The Clone is awakened for the real Ayane, Keisuke ends up fusing/allowing himself to be absorved for the Ayana' clone and kills the remaining Marebito members, with the massacre starting for one that was completely loyal to him even as he was dying.
Shin' Love Interest and Recovered Addict to Shadow Extraction, a ritual turned Fantastic Drug, Kanaru Morimoto discover a Awful Truth of her own, she was a creation of Keisuke meant to spread Shadow Extraction and ensure that Marebito would have always some potential Persona users to attack, at least until she ended up developing a personality of her own due to a flaw in her programing. Even Worse, Morimoto was developed with a limited timespam, which inevitably kills her.
While the Ayane clone was sucessfully contained at first for Shin and friends, said clone awaken again and causes another disater in Ayanagi City, becoming a walking Mind Rape zone. The real Ayane manages to find her and a Big Bad Ensemble of three (Ayane, Clone Ayane and Ryo Kanzato) try to be the Final Boss at once. Keisuke' voice ends up appearing, trying to get to steal Shin' Persona before being reemplaced for Ayane again.
The whole fight is a messy fight with a lot of mind trip. But with a important detail. Ryo manages to get partially inside the Ayane/Clone Ayane/Keisuke gestalt mind and reveals a a Imporant thing.
Keisuke wanted Ayane to die and become a existence between the Sea of Souls and the regular world. He willingly "made her" what she was and he don't care much about it.
Ultimately, the Kanzato brothers, including a regretful Ryo, manage to stop Ayane and her attempt to kill everyone by awakening a unseen Eldritch Abomination named the Feathered Whale. At the end Keisuke dissapeared completely with his daughter(s).
Then Ryo died for the overuse of his Persona (he had to took drugs to continue using it), happy at having reconciliated with his brothers having finish the series of tragedies caused for the Komatsubara family.
Trinity Soul had a lot of Tear Jerker material. I actually teared up some times.
Heinous Standard?
The P3 comparation with Ikitsuki is mandatory, but I don't think that either of them overshadows each other. Ikitsuki wanted to end the world himself while Keisuke was willing to let it happen as a side-effect. Heck, even in the Abusive Parent stuff, Keisuke is did a Sho...several times.
Keisuke is guilty of a lot of extremely brutal murders with teenage victims, the spreading of a Fantastic Drug and of using a group of teenagers as his hitmen, intending and suceeding on sacrificing all of them. In terms of sheer personal human misery, Keisuke really stands out by himself. That without adding that he is the reason why Ayane was as crazy as she was.
In my own opinion, Keisuke is one of the most horrid SMT Big Bad, not just Persona, but Shin Megami Tensei as a whole. That is how bad he was.
Redeeming traits?
He wants revive his daughter...yet never show any affection to her at all, having caused her suicide initally. He show no guilt at all, other characters speculate that he feels guilt, but he never showed it.
And the throwayay final line which practically confirms that he either or did want his daughter to kill herself or was totally fine with it, so he could do a experiment regarding the conection of the Sea of Souls and the normal world just cement it. Keisuke just...didn't care for her, she was a tool more, her resurrection was a science project.
Keisuke wanted resurrect his daughter For Science! after having caused her suicide and he caused a lot of pain to hundreds in the way. Nothing redeeming here.
As a sidenote. The reason why he choose Jun and Yuki Kanzato was not due to them being hurt alone, but also to take a twisted pleasure in a final "fuck you, I got your children involved in the Persona stuff" to the Kanzato parents as revenge for having abandoned the experiment that got a girl killing herself.
After the Kanzato were already death.
Verdict?
Yes.
. Keisuke is cold, he caused so much misery that he really stands out not only in Persona, but Shin Megami Tensei as a whole.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Dec 3rd 2018 at 11:16:56 AM
Watch me destroying my countryIt's all right.
Now, after two successful proposals (the second of which was a very close call), here's my third candidate. I actually submitted it to @AustinDR on his Tumblr page a while back, but I realize he's never read the story. At the time I'd submitted it, I hadn't seen the epsiode, but without further ado, I'd like to propose it personally!
What's the Work?
After the original show was cancelled, eight more Grizzly Tales books were written. They focused on various themes and contained six tales each. No one from any of the first seven books counts, but I believe someone from the sixth and final story of Superzeroes (the eighth and final book) does. It's almost as if Jamie Rix wanted to save the nastiest kid for last. The story in question? The Rise and Fall of the Evil Guff!
Who is He? What Has He Done?
Bart Thumper is established as being willful even as a toddler. He refuses to eat his vegetables whenever he's asked. He says he hates the color green, cabbage smells like elephant breath, sprouts are made of metal, and he'd rather die than let a vegetable touch his lips. This always reduces his parents to tears, which is actually why he says it, as he never expects to actually die from eating vegetables. (Spoiler alert: he does.)
His parents try everything they can think of to get him to eat vegetables. They wrap them for his birthdays and gasp when he unwraps them. They do puppet shows with peppers, but Bart says he can never eat a talking vegetable. They even make up a game where vegetables have taken over the world and are to be eaten, but Bart refuses to believe that a vegetable could run the United States.
It's on Bart's ninth birthday that his parents finally succeed in getting him to eat a vegetable. They disguise the taste of cauliflower by lacing his cake with extra thick chocolate icing and a butterscotch filling so sweet it makes Bart's teeth squeak. They liquefy the cauliflower into dribble, dye it brown and inject it to the sponge. Bart doesn't realize what he's eaten until he sees his parents' beaming faces. A normal boy with no terrorist tendencies would just shrug it off, but Bart is a kid who bears grudges, and by feeding him his first vegetable, his parents have just opened a humongous can of worms. (Contrary to what you're probably thinking, though, this story is not trying to teach you not to feed your kids vegetables.)
Bart spends the next four hours trying to decide how to get even, when the liquefied cauliflower works its way through his system and causes him to let out a squeak from a hitherto silent place. Bart, having had no experience with farting, initially wonders if there's a mouse, then thinks he's sprung a leak, but when he smells his own farts, he begins to connect the dots. He'd broken wind for the first time after eating his first vegetable. Hoping to use it as a weapon, he decides to test a theory. He goes downstairs, pretending he wants to apologize for how he acted earlier, and lets out a huge stink. His farts are super stinky, and his parents can't stand it. They volunteer to give him whatever he wants, and beg him not to let another one loose.
Wanting fuel for his farts, Bart asks his parents to buy him vegetables. For a week, he stocks up on vegetables. On the seventh day, his insides have rotted into a noxious gas that he wants to test out. He says he doesn't want to go to school, and when his father says he has to, Bart lets another one loose, causing his father to swerve, bump into the pavement, kick open the door, and be forced out by a policeman whose foot he ran over. At school, he says he wants to go home, and when his teacher says no one goes home except at his word, Bart toots a rendition of Boomshackalak. Many children vomit, the Environmental Health Officer is called to check the cleanliness of the kitchen, and school is shut down for a week. When she takes him shopping against his will, Bart tells his mother to take him home. When she doesn't listen, Bart lets out a wet one in front of the delicatessen counter. The moist heat buckles Aisles 3 to 13 and melts the windows. The resultant stink cloud wilts concrete lamp posts, curls paving slabs, and bursts fire hydrants. The buses are canceled and Bart and his mother have to walk home. Bart's response? "From now on, you do as I say, or pay the consequences."
When Chief Inspector Blair names him the "Evil Guff" and describes him as "dangerous and not to be approached", Bart's parents rush him to a clinic. The doctor diagnoses him as a human stink bomb and having an enlarged composting mechanism in his stomach that turns everything he eats into methane. He jokingly suggests sewing up Bart's bottom, but then suggests that Bart stops eating vegetables. [Which do you think is more ironic: the fact that a doctor is telling his patient not to eat vegetables, or the fact that Bart is banned from vegetables right when he (albeit for the wrong reason) starts to like them?] Eight days ago, Bart would be delighted, but with his eyes opened to the evil potential of his bowels, he's just horrified. The doctor tries to tell him that it's only a matter of time before his farts burn a large and irreversible hole in the ozone layer, but Bart is not fazed at all, and just delivers a booming bubbler up the doctor's nose.
At home, Bart's parents truss him up in a Clingfilm nappy and tell him he can have no more vegetables. Bart threatens to find more fuel, but his father offers to raise his pocket money, buy him a table top map of the world, and even build him an indoor shark pool. His mother even says it's like living with a cow, which is a really bad choice of words, because it gives Bart an idea for a new fuel source: grass. The neighbor sees him on all fours the following morning, eating grass.
The grass accelerates his descent into "winanity" (describes by the book as "insanity brought on by an excess of wind") and adds the nuclear factor to Bart's farts. Bart drops a sly one on his mother's face when she passes the marmalade too slowly and is shocked when it comes out with the force of a hurricane! His mother is blown across the room and tries to anchor herself by grabbing Bart's father, but only succeeds in dragging him with her. They both go flying and land six miles away in a busy ring road, where a passing llama truck makes pet food out of their heads.
Bart is pretty shocked, as he never intended to orphan himself, but as he examines his emotions, he realizes he's actually pleased. The demon inside has taken hold, and with no one to hold him back, he's free to do whatever he wants as the "Evil Guff".
The police, the army, and secret agents try to catch him, but their noses are no match for his farts. The Prime Minister brings in Parliament for an emergency debate, and after a suggestion to put him in a vacuum-sealed chamber is shot down on the basis that he'll just "huff and puff and blow the walls down", the Prime Minister suggests Bart live with bears. His reasoning, when he is interrogated by a journalist, is that bears are naturally smelly creatures and will be less offended by the wind Bart passes. He also states they can withstand the passing of a megaguff and will hopefully kill Bart before Bart kills anyone else.
Unfortunately, the bears are a lot tidier and less tolerant of smells that most people (like the Prime Minister) give them credit for. After a less-than-successful attempt to reason with the boy and convince him to curb his habit gets him and his wife blasted with a huge one (they don't move an inch from it), Mr. Bear sends the Prime Minister a letter threatening to go one strike, refuse to meet public, paint a series of banners accusing him of cruelty to animals, and even send a copy of the letter to The Brown Bear Times to stop him from ever being elected Prime Minster again unless Bart is taken away in twenty-four hours. Two hours after the letter reaches him, The Prime Minster shoots Mr. and Mrs. Bear dead, and tries to do the same to Bart, but Bart stuffs his face with grass and propels himself over the perimeter fence with a high-pressure thunder-dumpling.
The Evil Guff holes up in a cave and talks to walls as his "winanity" takes over. With his body in a wretched state from months of a diet consisting solely of grass and his brain frazzled from lack of protein, he begins to think he rules the world. He hijacks every TV and radio station in the planet and threatens that unless he receives £6000000000 in used notes, a large house on an island with a cook who's good at making spaghetti bolognaise, a shark tank, a jet ski, a white fluffy cat, and a table-top map of the world, he will eat a whole field of grass and let loose a big butt mutt that will destroy the ozone layer and cause everyone to be cooked up (apparently unaware or uncaring that he'll be just as susceptible to the effects of this action as everyone else on the planet). He gives them one hour to accede to his request.
Predictably, this causes a worldwide panic. World leaders consult each other on the best course of action to take. Priceless art collections are carried to sealed cellars, sunshade sales go through the roof, strangers kiss on trains, football matches are abandoned as draws, workmen put down tools, insect leaders issue press releases that the world will soon be theirs (not seeming to realize that their own chances of survival aren't very high either), shops are looted, cars crash, submarines dive, people run screaming from buildings, twenty-five billion bottles of champagne are drunk, and the Spice Girls urge everyone to buy their new album. Then, five minutes before Bart's set deadline, the president of the United States gives the world's reply: "We do not negotiate with terrorists."
Unfortunately, Bart's threat was not an empty one. Wanting to make the world pay, the evil boy eats an entire field of grass, assumes position with his butt poking out of the entrance of the cave, and lets loose a nuclear nwonk that no one has ever seen or heard the like of before. Unfortunately for Bart (but fortunately for everyone else), the fart is so powerful, it passes straight through the ozone layer and instead tears a hole in the space-time continuum behind the ozone layer. Bart takes off like a speck of dust and shoots into a Time Tunnel. His eyeballs are liquefied and his molecules are rearranged, and then put back together again just in time for him to shoot out through the other end. He plummets headfirst into a medieval midden and ends up under fifteen tons. Over the next three years (1261-1264) he is slowly composted to death.
Mitigating Factors?
Bart clearly has no Freudian Excuse, and stands out among the other kids put on focus. While most other kids (particulary if they were a Big Brother Bully) could be pretty nasty in their own right, I doubt any other kid matches him in evil. I mean, has any other kid held the world ransom and tried to kill everyone when they're denied what they want? I don't think so.
That said, there are a few moments that may make you hesitant. Bart is wrapped in a Clingfilm nappy, eats grass on all fours, and even botches an attempt to pin the Bears against the wall with his farts. Even so, he's never Played for Laughs, and those moments don't really seem to detract from his evil.
You may think he's not all there when he goes insane, but anyone who's sane enough to know what will happen if the ozone layer is destroyed must have some grip on reality, so his moral agency isn't completely shot.
Verdict?
I'm saying no to Bart. I think this has officially crossed the line into "too tonally ridiculous/silly to have a qualifier" — I'm not entirely sure "break a hole in the ozone layer with toxic farts" is a sure sign the narrative is taking everything seriously enough for the trope qualifications.
Yes to the Persona candidate.

If Dora had an example they could add me to the body count as I'd die laughing.
Things are really about to get Fun around here