During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Oh man, I kind of wish to propose some baddies from X-Mas movies/works... As for now, we have that Wolf from Nikko movie and Hans Gruber most definitely that I know of as for now.
Come to think of it, I'm kind of wonder if any incarnations of Snow Queen qualified as a CM
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Dec 2nd 2018 at 9:16:25 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."Found this on Adaptational Nice Guy trope page:
- Brutally averted in Purple Days. Joffrey Baratheon starts as the same Complete Monster he was in canon, and his evolution into a better person is triggered by repeated suffering and mistakes, time after time, until he finally gives up on most of what he thought he knew and starts listening to others, starting with Ned Stark. Even then, this does not stop him from sliding back and fighting to claw his way out of the monster he remembers being.
Is this okay?
ON History of Violence YMMV page I found this:
- Complete Monster: "Little" Lou Manzi from the original comic is a ravenously psychotic mob boss and Torture Technician who makes Cold-Blooded Torture his hobby. Since becoming the head of the boss twenty years before the story, Manzi keeps a man as a toy, torturing him in every conceivable way he can think of day in and day out till the man is nothing more than an armless, legless chunk of meat—barely alive and conscious. In present, he tries to get the man's partner back to be his victim as well by threatening his family and his young children.
- From the film, Leland Jones and Billy Orser. They are a pair of thieving serial killers who are introduced casually murdering the staff of the motel they're departing at the start of the movie, with Billy gunning down a scared little girl without a hint of emotion. Later, when they try to rob Tom Stall's diner, Leland orders Billy to rape a waitress to "show this asshole we mean business," which Billy is all too happy to oblige; thankfully, Tom kills them both before it goes that far. It's heavily implied they are on a cross-country murder spree, and would have continued indiscriminately robbing and killing everyone they encountered had Tom not turned the tables on them when he did. Despite not being the actual villains of the film, they are without a doubt the most evil and depraved characters.
- Also, Richie Cusack. The guy fondly recalls how he tried to strangle his newborn baby brother in his crib when they were young... to his brother, now an adult. Then he tries to blithely have his brother killed just to save face with his gangster friends.
Only the first entry seems to be good IMHO.
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Plus the Big Bad and Dragon pair from Lethal Weapon 2: Arjun Rudd and Pieter Vorstedt.
Edited by k410ren on Dec 2nd 2018 at 10:20:25 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and killsAlthough, while Richie seems to fall into Offscreen Villainy, Leland and Billy seem like they could qualify. Anyone seen the film?
Alright, let's do this.
- Fox Craft: The Mage, real name Keeveny, is a former Elder fox who fell into darkness and treachery. Seeking to gain ultimate power by unleashing the White Fox, uncaring to the untold amounts of destruction this will wreak, the Mage uses his mastery over the foxcraft ability of pleaching to strip entire masses of foxes of their free will, converting them into his unwilling slave army known as Taken. Having personally massacred Siffrin's entire skulk in the past, the Mage sends the Taken to terrorize the land, converting more foxes into his army and killing those who resist or are of no use, all the while decaying the Wildlands by draining it of its maa. He tricks Haiki into betraying Isla and her friends by offering to release his family, who in truth are already dead, nearly resulting in all their deaths. It is later revealed that he has been abducting young foxes with exceptional maa, planning to use them to unleash the White Fox upon the world.
Also, speaking of Die Hard, Ricochet apparently is in the same universe according to the Franchise page for Die Hard, mainly because they feature the same character of Gail Wallens (the blonde female reporter in the first film). Does this have any bearing on the heinousness of Earl John Talbot or Hans Gruber?
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and killsNo. Random connections like that aren't taken into account when judging a heinous standard like that. Its the same reason why we don't compare X-files to the wire even though there appernyly in the same universe(???).
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."So, here we go. Revolution X. First off, the console versions are supposedly a Porting Disaster, so play it on MAME.
From the attract mode, exactly as it scrolls:
The NEW ORDER NATION has taken over and everything you like is WRONG!
All Videogames, Television, Magazines and especially Music have been declared illegal and are STRICTLY FORBIDDEN!
A corrupt Neo-Industrial-Governmental-Militaristic oppressive Alliance, The NEW ORDER NATION—led by Head Mistress HELGA—is seizing all citizens between ages 13 and 30.
You are on your way to see AEROSMITH! They're playing at CLUB X, LA's hottest nightspot.
At the same time, the NEW ORDER NATION's evil plan is being launched and you are stuck in the middle.
As one of the last surviving free youth, you must battle NEW ORDER forces to get backstage at CLUB X to meet AEROSMITH where together you will begin the REVOLUTION!
Remember, MUSIC IS THE WEAPON!
Our candidate, not surprisingly, is Helga
◊ (for some reason, the console manuals have "Headmistress" as one word).
Note: I will be using the console manual to assist me, and NON stands for New Order Nation.
Who is Helga and what has she done?
Well, after battling NON members at Club X, Aerosmith is performing when Helga and NON mooks kidnap them. You then fight through the second level, at which point you can take on the next 3 levels in any order.
AMAZON JUNGLE: NON is putting mind-control chemicals in the world's food supply, and, according to the manual, have turned the "once-peaceful natives into crazed killers".
More than that, they also have female hostages (recurring throughout the game) and turn them into monsters
◊ you have to fight (if you can't see the image that well, skip to about 16:25 here
).
MIDDLE EAST: Besides using the hostages as slave labor
◊, you have to destroy a bus transporting youth for brainwashing. If you fail
◊, it says 50 innocents have expired. I'm not sure if they die or are just brainwashed (nor, for that matter, am I sure how destroying the bus they're on saves them), but either way, they're teens at best who are either being brainwashed or killed.
PACIFIC RIM: You have to destroy KemmiTech, which manufactures mind-controlling chemicals. Notable here
◊ are the hostaged; I wasn't able to get a screenshot, but right before this (around 29:20 here
) it says "mind floss lab victims".
In the sixth and final level, at an Aerosmith concert at Wembley Stadium (I guess they've been freed?), you fight Helga herself...until she goes One-Winged Angel and becomes Mondor
◊. Destroy it, win the game.
Disqualifiers?
Nope, none that hold up. While it's not exactly clear what the fuck Mondor is, there's nothing to indicate it lacks agency, and its quoting Monty Python isn't really disqualifying.
As for how responsible Helga/Mondor is for NON's actions, while she's not directly overseeing everything, it's pretty obvious she's in charge, so everything can be traced back to her.
Heinousness?
I think what with the killing/brainwashing kids, the mind control, and the transforming women into mooks, Helga adds some cruel touches beyond your basic Light Gun Game, especially from the early to mid 90s.
Conclusion?
I'm unsure myself, but I've wondered for some time. If she counts great, if not at least I'll have a definitive answer. And either way, I had fun doing this effortpost.
I've added this to this week's batch
:
- Fox Craft: The Mage, real name Keeveny, is a former Elder Fox who fell into darkness and treachery. Seeking to gain ultimate power by unleashing the White Fox, uncaring to the untold amounts of destruction this will wreak, the Mage uses his mastery over the foxcraft ability of pleaching—weaving two minds together—to strip entire masses of foxes of their free will, converting them into his unwilling slave army known as Taken. Having personally massacred Siffrin's entire skulk in the past, the Mage sends the Taken to terrorize the land, converting more foxes into his army and killing those who resist or are of no use, all the while decaying the Wildlands by draining it of its life force, or maa. He tricks Haiki into betraying Isla and her friends by offering to release his family, who in truth are already dead, nearly resulting in all their deaths. It is later revealed that he has been abducting young foxes with exceptional maa, planning to use them to unleash the White Fox upon the world.
Still, she seems to be a little too flat to qualify as a Complete Monster. So I’m standing by my statement.
IF she ends up being a Complete Monster, might I suggest that the 1st pothole be “The Stop Having Fun Guys” or whatever it’s called? It would be a first.
Again, I stand by my rejection of this Candidate.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:42:23 AM
Culture Police actually works well for her.
One thing that pushed me to effortpost her was that Tokkentakker got approved.
Helga... Though seems like an interesting game and a could have been a potential attractive female C Ms

Luke from Better Watch Out, Black Wolf, Yule Man, etc.