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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#138076: Nov 30th 2018 at 7:23:22 PM

Yeah, I'll throw my hat in this particular ring with that trope, too.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#138077: Nov 30th 2018 at 7:25:45 PM

[tup] to the previous candidates

I was also going to discuss grindelwald but for Differant reasons.

You say his arc isn't over....Wich is TECHNICALLY true, but we do know how he ends up, he ends up giving the wands location go voldemort. So he obviously wont do a lot of changing. And to answer Devoted, it seamt fairly clear to me.

Once his followers are gone He instantly goes against his rheortic and commits EXTREMELY violent actions.

The Primary differance between him and voldemort Whereas Voldemort was a Straw Hypocrite ,Grindelwald was a case of Believing Your Own Lies. He is completely blind to his on Hypocrisy.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#138078: Nov 30th 2018 at 7:36:00 PM

[tup] Fyzen Gor. Last Shot eh? I need to read that for Toddler Ben Solo and "Unca Wanwo".

It's good to be back.

Devoted2Nintendo Since: Jul, 2018
#138079: Nov 30th 2018 at 7:48:00 PM

[up][up] Are you saying you think he might count? I don't disagree, but I still think it's too hard to say for sure one way or another so far. He does tell Voldemort where to find the Elder Wand in the movies, but there's still so much blank space to fill in, that assuming they don't completely re-write that bit, we still don't know enough details to determine his reason(s) for doing that, especially regarding his history with Dumbledore. His sincerity about intending to make the world a better place is also very questionable right now, especially since again, he seems to believe in what he's doing, but right after his followers leave, he possibly tries to have a whole city destroyed, making him at least somewhat hypocritical.

Regardless of the movie's flaws, I'm starting to find Gellert Grindelwald to be a fascinating villain for reasons like these. He's definitely isn't unambiguously evil the way Voldemort is, but at the very least, he's selectively blind to the immoral nature of his actions, which in a way, makes him more realistic and less cartoonish. Come to think of it, I believe his quip before he disappeared and left that spell behind was "I hate Paris", which is actually kind of funny considering how much he was just going out of his way to say that he has no hate for humans. One thing's for sure: he's certainly not as hatred-free as he claims, heh heh.

Edited by Devoted2Nintendo on Nov 30th 2018 at 11:20:40 AM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#138080: Nov 30th 2018 at 8:03:36 PM

Dosent he, in this very movie say one of the reasons he wants credence is that he wants Credence to kill Dumbledore? I may be mistaken.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Devoted2Nintendo Since: Jul, 2018
#138081: Nov 30th 2018 at 8:10:02 PM

Oh he definitely said that. It's his main motive for wanting to recruit him in the first place. But even so, we still know very little about their relationship right now other than that they were super close, and are now at odds with each other, since obviously, Dumbledore disagrees with his supremacist ideology, and is one of, if not the only, wizard who can match him in power. There might still be important factors regarding their fallout and what led to it that have yet to be revealed.

Edit: Actually, sorry, there are far more details regarding their relationship in the books available. But since the movies have made at least some different decisions, how it'll all be handled still seems pretty up in the air.

Edited by Devoted2Nintendo on Nov 30th 2018 at 11:34:57 AM

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#138082: Nov 30th 2018 at 8:15:04 PM

[tup] for Fyzen Gor.

This is not the time nor the place nor the forum to discuss the terminology of a trope name you don't agree with because it includes a word that most people in general tend to get upset by. Either open up a discussion forum suggesting to change the name of the trope or talk about it with the admins.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#138083: Nov 30th 2018 at 8:36:42 PM

[tup]M.Fyzon

Here's this header idea I've had for the Phantasy Star Franchise: While Dark Force is usually lacking in agency, the same can't be said for the following antagonists, who stand out as the nastiest of the nastiest.

Edited by MasterJoseph on Nov 30th 2018 at 8:37:49 AM

IPP Wick Check created.
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#138084: Nov 30th 2018 at 8:36:51 PM

I should note about the Harry Potter books and films that there is a difference.

In the films, Grindelwald tells Voldy where the Elder Wand is.

In the books, he refuses, mocking Voldemort. Voldy then murders him.

These Fantastic Beasts films are in continuity with the books rather than the films, so if we're talking about heinousness or mitigating factors we're going with the novels.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#138085: Nov 30th 2018 at 8:38:56 PM

If that's the case, Grindy's never gonna count.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#138086: Nov 30th 2018 at 8:42:06 PM

I was aware of the book version Grindelwald having that moment.

Isn't it canon to both versions of the universe?

Edited by Kylotrope on Nov 30th 2018 at 8:42:36 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#138087: Nov 30th 2018 at 8:48:30 PM

Canon to the books you say ?

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#138088: Nov 30th 2018 at 9:06:50 PM

Well...learn something new every day.

Devoted2Nintendo Since: Jul, 2018
#138089: Nov 30th 2018 at 9:16:46 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] Where did you read or hear this? That's the first I've heard of them being canon to the books and not the Harry Potter movies.

Regardless, I still think it's way too soon to assume exactly how closely it'll follow either continuity. There's still 3 movies left, and they could go in a variety of small, but important directions with Grindelwald's character that could make all the difference here. I agree that he definitely couldn't count if they follow the paths of the books and he's implied to come to regret his actions later on, but I find it hard to believe that that can already be confirmed, unless of course, people like David Yates or J.K. Rowling herself were to openly say it. You wouldn't happen to have heard or read this from them, would you?

Edited by Devoted2Nintendo on Nov 30th 2018 at 12:26:35 PM

lrrose Since: Jul, 2009
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#138091: Nov 30th 2018 at 9:40:16 PM

Welp, no one in Let's Go qualifies due to Giovanni being the main big bad and he's as affable as ever.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#138092: Nov 30th 2018 at 9:45:14 PM

Also, nobody in She-ra qualifies. Yet. Hordak hasn't done enough quite yet, Shadow Weaver isn't heinous enough and Catra...is a mess of issues that disqualify her hard from this.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#138093: Nov 30th 2018 at 10:08:13 PM

Maybe Mind Screw is a better title because it's a little more open to interpretation.

It looked like Voldemort killed Grindelwald in the movie too at the same time as he apparated away, but maybe he didn't. I can't imagine FB and CoG are in continuity with the books. It may just come off that way because she wrote the books and wrote these movies directly for the screen.

Still, seeing Nagini with the good guys at the end and knowing what she's gonna become was effective because it made me feel really sorry and sad for her.

SumDumNerd LOCKDOWN PROCEDURES ENGAGED from [REDACTED] Since: May, 2017 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
LOCKDOWN PROCEDURES ENGAGED
#138094: Nov 30th 2018 at 10:16:56 PM

Hey everyone. I know I've asked this before, but I need a refresher: can metafictional villains qualify? Because they're metafictional, they don't have a direct influence on the "real world" and are technically written/created by someone else. Like, for example, Alice in Wonderland went a lot differently and the Queen of Hearts met all the criteria, but then Alice woke up and it was all a dream. Or a bunch of kids are telling ghost stories around a campfire, and one tells a story about a monster that meets all criteria, but it's metafictional. Or say that The Princess Bride went differently and Humperdink met all criteria, but he's a character in a book. Would they have moral agencies being from dreams/stories, even if the main plot took place in said dreams/stories? And would they "do enough" if it turns out they aren't real?

Read Slender Man vs Siren Head 2: The Foundation here
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#138095: Nov 30th 2018 at 10:18:36 PM

[tup] Gor and Mido

Depotholing Yates.

  • Cannibal Holocaust: Alan Yates is a traveling filmmaker with a sadistic streak. Not above staging events for his documentaries, Yates and his crew embark to South America in search of cannibalistic indigenous tribes. When Jack wounds a Yacumo man, they follow him to his village. Once there, Yates forces the tribe into a single hut and sets it ablaze. Locating the Yanomamo, or Tree People, Yates and his crew take advantage of the fact that the tribe wouldn't attack them lest provoked by partaking in filming themselves gang-raping a helpless Yanamomo woman. When they later learn that she had been impaledcrotch-first— as punishment by the natives, Yates—unfazed by the sight before him—is thrilled by what he had done. He also has no qualms with sacrificing his own crew when it suits him as he shoots Jack so that he could film the vengeful tribe desecrating his body. Xenophobic, sociopathic, and desiring fame above all else, Monroe puts it best when he wonders who were the real cannibals.

Edited by DemonDuckofDoom on Nov 30th 2018 at 10:32:21 AM

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#138096: Nov 30th 2018 at 11:01:10 PM

I hope you mean the novel Alice in Wonderland. But even so, I'd say most of her executions are offscreen or rather not described. So yeah, easy no there.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#138097: Nov 30th 2018 at 11:10:24 PM

[tup]Fyzen and Mido

By the way guys I've started reading a series called Mythos Academy. Anyone famlair with it as I might bring up its Big Bad Loki after I'm done.

Edited by miraculous on Dec 1st 2018 at 12:22:07 PM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#138098: Dec 1st 2018 at 1:08:57 AM

Oh! And btw, My late writeups. First is Apos+Sayara love child without raping anybody but still evil. Special thanks to 43110 trimming this writeup as the original that I wrote felt pretty bloated and long (Given she's one of the worst I put... Yeah):

  • Amalgam of Distortion: SAI's head scientist, Sara Warren, experiments on countless people, turning them into horrific monstrosities to sell them on the black market and even eating one alive. Becoming obsessed with high-schooler Rokumichi Kusaba, Sara creates a lifelike hologram of a child to jump on a train track, forcing Rokumichi to risk his own life to save the fake child. When Rokumichi escapes her laboratory, Sara sends her other experiments to hunt him down while kidnapping his Love Interest, Yayoi Hina. Sara is also revealed to have manipulated one of her follower's memories to make him think she was his saviour from harm's way she had put him in and also manipulate another young man into becoming a Serial Killer. Ever obsessed with her own god complex, Sara also subjected her own unborn children the same procedures as Rokumichi, hoping to create a race of immortal being while turning the other five billion people on the planet into more monsters. Beautiful and sadistic, Sara cements herself as Rokumichi most dangerous enemy.

And now the second one, the baddie from Max Payne movie:

  • Max Payne (2008): B.B. Hensley is a chief security of the Aesir Corporation who proves himself to be worse than his game counterpart. Near the end of the movie, it was revealed that he was responsible on selling a drug known as Valkyr across New York which would causes other people receiving a horrible side effects which ended up making the consumer driven to insanity after seeing the Angels. It was also revealed that he killed Max Payne's wife and his infant child by sending 3 junkies to his house while sadistically enjoys on murdering them. It was also revealed that he is also responsible of Lupino's—the former test subject of the Valkyr Drug—atrocities in the film. After Max discovers his secrets, B.B. then tries to drown Max in the river under the pretense that the latter died by a drug-induced suicide in the river.

I'll send this to the drafts but I feel that B.B. can be spoiled since he's a walking spoiler after all in the movie unlike in the game.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#138099: Dec 1st 2018 at 2:09:28 AM

Yes to Mido, yes to Fyzen.

For Cannibal Holocaust, I just requested chopping the sadist pothole.

Edited by ACW on Dec 1st 2018 at 5:40:08 AM

TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#138100: Dec 1st 2018 at 4:22:34 AM

[tup] Fyzen and Mido

Here's something I need to add about Murai, you should also remember he is the Dark Disciple, which didn't imply, but actually stated he manipulated Emperor Vigoor to wipe out the Hayabusa Clan in his scheme to empower the Dark Dragon Blade and help unleash demons to the world through helping Vigoor so he had indirect responsibility for everything that happened. I mean the game also stated there was no way anybody should've known about the Dragon Blade except for people in the clan, yet Vigoor knew, and Murai revealing himself as the Dark Disciple should pretty much tell you he's the man behind everything.

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle

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