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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#137001: Nov 21st 2018 at 12:05:31 AM

Happy birthday Lighty right after mine. So how old ru now? I just turned 22

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#137002: Nov 21st 2018 at 12:43:29 AM

Happy Birthday Lighty

I cut those quotes because I fell they didn't illustrate the trope out of context.

"If you will not be turned, you will be destroyed!"
Emperor Palpatine before attempting to torture Luke Skywalker to death, Return of the Jedi

"You are looking for something that is gone. Raava has been destroyed, and soon you will be too!"
Unalaq/Vaatu, to Korra, The Legend of Korra, "Light In The Dark"

I'm also conflicted about this one

"NOW, TEN THOUSAND YEARS OF DARKNESS BEGINS!"
Unalaq/Vaatu, The Legend of Korra, "Darkness Falls"

[down] I'm fine with the second Palpatine quote but the first one amounts to "You don't understand the dark side and I'm going to kill you"

Edited by Silverblade2 on Nov 21st 2018 at 11:43:10 AM

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#137003: Nov 21st 2018 at 12:48:39 AM

@TV Rulez Again Interesting counterargument. In that case, I may have to switch to abstain then.

Perhaps the biggest issue with the Penguin is that he's truly a despicable character who has done horrible crimes in his career that it's hard to imagine him not making it to the Complete Monster list. He's a Hate Sink, no doubt. And due to how petty and horrific his crimes are, he'll likely be brought again and again by newcomers because of his character.

It's sort of like Ghetsis. Even though he fails the heinous test again and again, his Hate Sink personality and treatment of N will still make people convinced that he's a Complete Monster and attempt to argue for his case. If that is case, then considering that the Arkham universe is pretty much done and won't be revisited anytime soon (assuming that rumored Superman game by Rocksteady isn't going to change), if the Penguin fails to pass the litmus test, shall he be written off as Never Be Discussed Again?

[up] Hmmmm, I think it's best if Unalaq has quotes independent of Vaatu just to be safe. Otherwise, people will believe that Vaatu should be considered a Complete Monster.

As for Palpatine, here are some possible replacement quotes in mind:

"Young fool. Only now, at the end, do you understand. Your feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side. You have paid the price for your lack of vision. Now, young Skywalker, you will die."
Emperor Palpatine

"Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design. Your friends, up there on the sanctuary moon, are walking into a trap, as is your rebel fleet. It was I who allowed the alliance to know the location of the shield generator. It is quite safe from your pitiful little band. An entire legion of my best troops await them. Oh, I'm afraid the deflector shield will be quite operational when your friends arrive."
Emperor Palpatine

Edited by Shadao on Nov 21st 2018 at 12:59:19 PM

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#137006: Nov 21st 2018 at 1:29:50 AM

[tup] Laurel, Ash, Oswald "The Penguin" Cobblepott, Sima Yi

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#137007: Nov 21st 2018 at 1:29:50 AM

Holy FUCK this thread moved fast overnight. Okay, let's see:

First off, happy b-day Lighty!

Second, I've not seen the ep, but it's been 2 weeks, and if anyone wants to see it, we may have a new candidate from Criminal Minds. This dude is a hitman who's killed over 50 people, forcing them to drink bleach beforehand.

With all this debate, I'm doing what I usually do when I don't know the work myself: Abstain on Arkham!Penguin.

[tup] Sima Yi.

[tup]Laurel.

[tup] Ash.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#137008: Nov 21st 2018 at 1:32:28 AM

[up][up][up][up][up]I wouldn't mind just checking the entire quotes page. As I suspect quote a few quotes don't look great

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#137009: Nov 21st 2018 at 3:20:59 AM

[tup] to Sima Yi and Laurel Hedare.

I want to vote up Penguin, I think he's heinous enough even considering his competition but the bird thing makes me pause (we know for a fact he has no problem hurting "dumb animals" as later brags about shooting and stuffing Harley's Hyena's, but still) so I guess I'm going to have to abstain. What's the vote tally at this point, it seemed majority [tup].

And happy birthday Lighty, to another glorious year of you going through media at a scale us mortals can only dream of.

TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#137010: Nov 21st 2018 at 3:34:56 AM

I've made some edits with Bourd Rade of Ar tonelico: Melody of Elemia. Added a few details I missed since some details can be missed if not played 100% and there's little data to find in the internet.

  • Bourd Rade is the second-in-command of the Tenba Organization, which is notorious for its shady practices. Rade has a penchant to use innocent people for his army, and lets them abuse the Reyvateils they captured. Seeking to dissolve all of the organizations to take over, he worked with Bishop Falss to awaken Mir. To do that, he first stole the song, Chronicle Key, from the Star Singer Misha, to prevent her from performing her ritual which would keep Mir's seal intact and then Misha herself while burning an entire village in the process. Ordered by Falss to kill Lyner, Bourd instead kidnaps him to forcefully recruit him. After chasing him and Misha in an airship to escape Bourd, he takes another Reyvateil named Aurica hostage and threatened to throw her off until Misha returns to his side, and when she does, Bourd throws Aurica anyway. When Lyner and his group tries to stop Mir, Bourd tries to stop them from heading to their destination, only to end up seemingly killed by Misha. Returning in Misha's path, Bourd reveals his goal of creating a mindless army of Reyvateils to destroy the world organizations, and back stab Falss to reach ultimate power. He then engages the party in one last fight trying to kill Misha to prevent Chronicle Key from being sang.

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#137011: Nov 21st 2018 at 4:04:39 AM

Happy birthday Lighty. And also you G-editor!

Move me to Abstain on Pengu for the same reasons as Lighty.

Watch me destroying my country
lrrose Since: Jul, 2009
#137012: Nov 21st 2018 at 4:14:44 AM

[tup]Sima Yi, Laurel, and Ash.

Happy birthday, Lighty!

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#137013: Nov 21st 2018 at 6:06:02 AM

Happy b-day Lightysnake 🎂

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#137014: Nov 21st 2018 at 6:22:49 AM

Alright, I want to propose someone again and this time, it's a collaboration with me and Jackie. Today's EP concerns a seemingly dead franchise named Fear Effect. And the franchise in question? Has like 4 keepers. 1 from the first Fear Effect series, 2 from Fear Effect Retro Helix and 1 from Fear Effect Sedna. I'll do the 2 people from Fear Effect Retro Helix. Without further ado, let's begin with the first potential keeper shall we.

What's the Work

So, the work name is Fear Effect. An action/adventure/horror game that tells us the story about 3 mercenaries, Hana Tsu Vachel/Mei Yun, Royce Glas and Jacob "Deke" De Court. In the first game, the three has to protect a mysterious woman who is revealed to be the daughter of the rich and powerful businessman. However, I'm not going to talk about the first game. I'm going to cover the prequel of the story:

So, the prequel tells us how the three mercenaries met together. Before they met, Hana is a mercenary working for a mysterious man named Jin in order to obtain a package that could cure a virus named EINDS virus and in this game, she was partnered by a woman named Rain Qin which also doubled as Hana's love interest. Together, they venture across Hong Kong, formidable city wall of Xi'an, the lost tomb of the first Emperor and lastly they went into the island of the immortals, Penglai Shuan.

Now, my first candidate here comes from the first chapter of the Retro Helix game and in the game, Hana and Rain were tasked to stole a package under the aqueducts of the Wing Chung tower. However, when they travel in said Tower, they were watched by a mysterious figure on the shadow... Meet the Foreman/Planner.

Who is He/What Has He Done

So, the Foreman/The Planner is one of the workers of the Wing Chung tower and he also had a knowledge of a machine known as the fixers. However, he is actually mutated into a hideous creature and become a demented person as a result. He first appeared watching the steps of Hannah and Rain in the security room while they infiltrate the aqueducts and when Rain tries to get across the room, the foreman then presses the button that release the steam. However, Rain manages to escape from said Steam.

Unfortunately, she came across in a room filled with corpses of the workers in the Wing Chung university and it was revealed that the Foreman kills them with the Fixers that he reprogrammed. This was confirmed when Hanna encounters one of the workers that seems terrified due to the series of murders that happened in the aqueduct. As a result, Hanna tries to communicate with Rain about what happened. However, the Planner manages to hijacks their line and ended up cutting both of their communication.

After this, the Planner then tries to attack Rain with a wrench in a room full of corpses with a giant wrench. And after the Planner is seemingly defeated, Rain then examines his seemingly dead body. Unfortunately for the Planner, he's still in his conscious state and then knocks Rain unconscious while remarking that he had a special toy just for her.

Eventually, Hanna tries to found Rain but unfortunately, after she found Rain, it was revealed that the latter was raped by a machine of the Planner and the Planner seems to enjoy this. After the Planner encounters Hana, he then attempts to do the same to her regarding on what happened with Rain. But fortunately, Hanna manages to electrocute the planner and freed Rain but it was revealed that he planted some bombs that could destroy Hong Kong's central district.

After the two disarm the bomb together, it was revealed that the Planner is still alive and tries to pushes a button on his controller that blows up the device in order to kill both Rain and Hanna in a last attempt for Taking You with Me. But fortunately, the explosion only kills the Planner and the surrounding area. Killing the mad worker once and for all.

Freudian Excuse/Mitigating Factors

Ah nope... Yes, it was implied that due to having working in the Aqueducts for so long, it infected his mind and thus screws his moral agency. But the thing is, the Planner did this on his own volition and we didn't saw his backstory about him being mutated and we didn't even saw ANY of the co-workers commenting on the Planner's state before he became what he was. So I think at the end of the day, he has no excuse or mitigating factors that mitigate his atrocities and agency still is on point IMO.

Heinous Standard

Fear Effect is fucking dark. Most of the heroes are anti heroes at best as in this game, when Rain tries to create a distraction, she accidentally make the entire university contaminated but fortunately, no victims there, Jacob is a frigging Sociopathic Hero and Glas' brother, Deke, kills several of his men after the latter lost an arm in a Suicide Mission. Oh! And there is also a doctor who invited the EINDS virus iirc so that's something to consider. And the other keepers from this game? Well, in Retro Helix, Rain's sister, Mist (which will be my second candidate in question) tries to rule the world as a demi goddess by using the EINDS virus to kill several of the Earth population, has a worse case of Chronic Backstabbing Disorder and then tries to merge with her mom by injecting a Genomic Void on her to rule the world and then there's Jin who is revealed to be the King of Hell, Yim-Lau Wong, who is responsible for the bad things happened in the first game and then there's Sedna but I think it took a place in separate universe and I haven't seen the game yet so no comment.

But the Planner? I think he makes it with the resources that he had given that Mist and Yim-Lau Wong? Both of them are demigods while the Planner himself is just a man with no godly powers and just having a machine as his own resources and he uses said resources to the fullest to become as awful as he can be. And also, I think raping someone with a machine is the only unique crime that he had as I don't recall other characters raped someone with that so yeah... Think he carves a unique niche with that with some additional crimes that pushes him over the edge.

Final Verdict

Your call. I'll handle Mist after this at a later time. But I'll let Jackie handle Yim-Lau Wong at first to get the gist of FE heinous standard as a whole so yeah. I understand if he doesn't make it for you guys but in my opinion, I still think he makes it.

Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Nov 21st 2018 at 9:23:20 PM

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#137015: Nov 21st 2018 at 6:27:47 AM

I'll give [tup] to the Planner

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#137016: Nov 21st 2018 at 6:41:19 AM

Was the rape onscreen (well, Discretion Shot anyway)? If so, with that and with trying to destroy much of Hong Kong (hundreds of thousands of deaths at BEST probably, up to millions), I'll give a tentative yes for now.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#137017: Nov 21st 2018 at 6:42:46 AM

@ACW Yeah, the rape is actually shown considered that there is the part when Rain got tortured by the Planner's pleasuring machine while she got stripped? That seems to be enough.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#137018: Nov 21st 2018 at 6:50:31 AM

Okay, that seems unique enough for the series, and trying to blow up Hong Kong makes him heinous enough in general. [tup]

EDIT: BTW, next for de-potholing is GI Joe. While I'm at it, any good page headers?

Edited by ACW on Nov 21st 2018 at 10:08:21 AM

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#137019: Nov 21st 2018 at 7:40:54 AM

[tup]Planner.

Why so serious?
AgeOfTropeEmpire Handsome Head of Hyperion Since: Nov, 2018
Handsome Head of Hyperion
#137020: Nov 21st 2018 at 7:41:17 AM

[tup] to Sima, Laurel, Ash, the Planner, and a Happy Birthday to Lighty!

As of now, taking into account any switched votes as well, Cobblepot has 19 Yes, 7 Abstain, and 5 No votes. If nothing major changes in the next few hours, I'll get started and his and my other write-ups before holiday drags me away

[down] That sounds for the best, seeing as he's not as prominent as Joker, Strange, or Scarecrow, but is much moreso than Day.

Edited by AgeOfTropeEmpire on Nov 21st 2018 at 7:48:31 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#137021: Nov 21st 2018 at 7:43:23 AM

[up] Wow, didn't realize it was that lopsided (especially with him possibly caring for the birds; that's making me lean closer to no, but it's still 19-4-8 (!)).

Where will he go on the tree? Before Calendar Man?

Edited by ACW on Nov 21st 2018 at 11:06:18 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#137022: Nov 21st 2018 at 8:10:20 AM

[tup]Planner

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#137025: Nov 21st 2018 at 8:17:46 AM

[tup] Planner.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."

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