During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I do kind of want reserve Gundam Narrative..but in the other side. All of the Post CCA series with Zeon are more of less a insult towards CCA (designed to be Zeon' last stand).
Dunno. My sanity say No. My Gundam fanboyism and anxiety for wanting a entry on mine in the Gundam page says Yes.
Watch me destroying my countryAlright... Writeup for Laurel will come soon same with Xenian Flower once I got some of my candidates on my to do list got approved in this thread.
Anyways, I've got a question for you guys. Recently I read a webcomic called Counting and there is possibly a potential candidate as far as I concerned. The main issue is that the comic is pretty short and the candidate in question mostly spend his time counting on something. He's heinous on his own as he successfully kills the entire townspeople by poisoning the water supply but the main issue is... Does the character only spending their time counting for something enough to establish his personality, traits and motives? I don't want to make the same mistake again with The Ringmaster and if it's a yes then I will EP him and if it not, then I'm cool for letting it slide in the dark.
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Nov 20th 2018 at 11:35:31 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."Hey! Not only Lighty got a new pfp. But Jackie too... Wonder who is that though :P
@therealjackieboy Anyways, I finished watching the playthrough of Fear Effect Retro Helix. Expect an EP from me soon enough. One I think is an easy keep and one I'm unsure of. And you will handle the rest because like you said in P Ms, there's like 4 keepers in the franchise.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."@Scraggle Alright... Thanks for the input.
@Beast Speaking of overlooked candidate... Think I'm going to read Tsutomu Nihei mangas in case if we have other overlooked candidates. That and there's a lot of anime and other works to be considered IMO.
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Nov 21st 2018 at 12:45:54 AM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."In regards to the Penguin, if Shou Tucker and Father can co-exist in the same universe, heinous competition with the Joker or Scarecrow is irrelevant if the Penguin is a different breed of monster.
If the Penguin is Played for Laughs like Magica DeSpell in that new Ducktales series (I presume that's why she failed the litmus test for Complete Monster), then no he shouldn't.
But I say that this incarnation of Penguin has no Affably Evil qualities that his comic book counterpart has. He's Faux Affably Evil, and truly petty. He got a bottle shoved up to his eye, and he decided the best form of revenge is take both eyes from the guy who did it and then drop him on a busy traffic street just for fun. In fact, every evil action he takes has a sense of pettiness such as the fact he killed and stuffed Harley's Hyenas for display just because they were part of the Joker's gang, or the fact that he's willingly to turn Harley Quinn into his sex slave after the Joker is dead. He's also ambitious and if it weren't for the Joker, he would have tried to usurp Black Mask for total domination of Gotham's Underworld. And he's also apparently such a Bad Boss that his henchmen abandons him the moment he's captured. Not even the Joker has that problem.
I think what makes the Penguin a Complete Monster isn't so much of competing for the body count or city destruction like Hugo Strange, Scarecrow, and the Joker. He's monstrous because he's an opportunist villain who makes his decisions in the worst manner possible. Remember, he's not trying to kill as many people For the Evulz like the Joker or Scarecrow. After all, who's going to give him money if all of his potential customers are dead? But if he thinks killing half of his customers will give him more money, I think he will do it. And he enjoys killing people or having his henchmen kill people. He also enjoys trying to destroy people he truly hates like Bruce Wayne.
In regards to the Even Evil Has Standards with Zsasz, recall that the Joker himself finds Professor Pyg to be even worse than most of Batman's Rogues Gallery despite the fact that Pyg is actually insane and doesn't see himself as evil. Unless the tone is different, Penguin's remark about Zsasz is unclear. He doesn't regret about cheating Zsasz's money or tell his goons to stay away from him. Also note that the Penguin loves to project his own flaws onto other villains, such as the Joker.
Yes, there is a pathetic and cowardly side to the Penguin by the time of Arkham Knight, but you can say the same thing with Shou Tucker. Shou Tucker has no chance of competing with the likes Father and his minions, but that doesn't excuse his actions or make him any less dangerous on the level he is capable of. Penguin may be a Big Bad Wannabe, but he is a serious threat that puts him on the competition and has demonstrated time and time again that he will use all of his resources to settle with most pettiness of scores.
It's a bit hard to decide, but overall
to Oswald Cobblepot. There is nothing I find redeemable about him, and it's clear that the games essentially made him as the Joker's mob rival who's just as big and nasty as the Clown Prince of Crime himself.
"You think the Joker's bad? Wait until Penguin deals with him! Penguin's an animal."
I usually try to keep stuff in this thread impersonal (to the point of never talking about my birthdays and stuff, lol) but screw it: happpy birthday Lightysnake!
And I'll say yes to Ash... but I can't really vote either way on the Catwoman villain. If she passes though I won't lose any sleep over it.
@Shadao "In regards to the Even Evil Has Standards with Zsasz, recall that the Joker himself finds Professor Pyg to be even worse than most of Batman's Rogues Gallery despite the fact that Pyg is actually insane and doesn't see himself as evil. Unless the tone is different, Penguin's remark about Zsasz is unclear."
Except that wasn't the real Joker, that was Batman's hallucination. And yes, the tone is different. The Joker was making a wisecrack, the Penguin is completely grim when he says it
.
Also going back to Age Of Trope Empire's argument that "he never says he's disgusted with Zsasz". He does though. He flat out says he considers Zsasz a monster.
Shou Tucker and Father are a case of having different resources. Penguin and Joker are both crime bosses with the same amount of resources and should be held to the same standard.
Also, I'm not really getting the counterarguments to Penguin opposing shooting birds. Saying that he just views them as a symbol of his image is Alternative Character Interpretation. As for the argument that it's hypocritical because he's a thug, murderer, etc... I mean, that doesn't change the fact that he explicitly doesn't allow his men to hurt birds.
EDIT:
Oh BTW, happy birthday.
Edited by TVRulezAgain on Nov 20th 2018 at 11:55:23 AM

And sure,
to Arkham!Oswald.
I gotta say, I do so love when we bring up or revisit overlooked characters and villains that have been famous for years. It's gives me this giddy "how did we not see this before ?" feeling and makes me excited for who I have in mind either as a Christmas surprise or a New Year send off.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."