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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#136626: Nov 17th 2018 at 5:34:24 PM

Also, ACW? If you haven’t read the EP, can you not put out the character page thing? OE did answer it in the post.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#136627: Nov 17th 2018 at 5:40:10 PM

Fair. Sorry OE.

Edited by ACW on Nov 17th 2018 at 8:44:23 AM

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#136628: Nov 17th 2018 at 5:45:08 PM

Have someone new to bring up. Actually the first one I've been sitting on for a while now (also I am kinda kicking myself for not realizing having that many October candidates until the month was over but wattayagoindo ?)

Hollow Man is a 2000 sci-fi thriller loosely based on The Invisible Man staring Kevin Bacon, Elisabeth Shue, and Josh Brolin. The plot concerns Dr. Sebastian Caine (Bacon) as he leads government funded experiments on an invisibility serum with a team including his ex-girlfriend Dr. Linda McKay and her current boyfriend Matt Kensington (Brolin). Things go south, so let's get to our Decoy Protagonist turned antagonist Sebastian Caine.

Who is he ? What does he do ?

Sebastian Caine is a brilliant, charismatic, if eccentric and egotistical scientist leading a project to develop an invisibility serum and a counter serum. The film opens with him pulling a breakthrough (as well as peeping on his neighbour played by Rhona Mitra) before he and his team successfully test the counter serum on a gorilla they previously made invisible. Instead of reporting the success to the military and his mentor Dr. Kramer, he lies about it being a failure and decides to move the tests onto human experiments unbeknownst to his superiors. Sebastian has the invisibility serum tested on himself which is also a success but he is required to stay in the facility for further observations and tests. It ain't no biggie to him as he spends him time pulling pranks with his team and scaring them...and then molesting a Sarah (one of the doctors he has working for him, and in charge of monitoring him) while she sleeps...and spying another one of his workers Janice while she's using the bathroom.

After ten days of being invisible and repeated failed reverse serum tests, Sebastian gets frustrated and leaves the facility back to his apartment. When he notices Rhona Mitra again, he decides "Why not ? Who will know ?" sneaks into her apartment and rapes her after toying with her (fun fact there's a deleted scene where we see the actual rape and aftermath as opposed to the discretion shot in the final film - test audiences didn't like it because it made it hard for them to place themselves in Sebastian's shoes). Hearing that Sebastian left the facility, an angry Linda warns him that if he does anything reckless like this again she will tell the committee that he's been working behind their backs. Ignoring this, Sebastian tampers with a thermal security camera so he can sneak out again, this time discovering Linda and Matt's secret relationship. In a fit of anger, Sebastian returns to the facility, opens the cage that he has a dog in and smashes the dog to death.

Realizing he's been out again, Linda and Matt go to inform Kramer about what Sebastian's been up to. Before Kramer can contact anyone important, Sebastian lured Kramer outside and drowns him in his swimming pool, before deciding to kill off his team. Sebastian disables the phones, security and elevator codes and starts off by killing Janice, cutting another guys jugular and leaving him to bleed to death, and stabbing another with a pipe. He overpowers Sarah when she tries to shoot him with a tranq dart, and twists her wrist to shoot herself before breaking her neck.

Finally Sebastian locks Linda and Matt in a rapidly cooling freezer to leave them to die, before setting up the facility to explode. Despite nearly freezing to death, Linda escapes with quick thinking and a makeshift super magnet, before going off to confront Sebastian with a makeshift flamethrower before he can escape. After burning Sebastian, and tricking him into electrocuting himself, Matt and Linda make their escape by climbing the up the disabled elevator shaft as the place goes up in flames. Sebastian climbs back after them to try to try to kill Linda, who overpowers him and kicks him into the exploding inferno while she and Matt climb out to safety.

Heinous standard

Sets it as the only villain with half a dozen brutal murders as well as rape and molestation under his belt.

Redeeming Qualities or Freudian Excuse ?

Now one argument that could be used against him was that the serum made him go crazy as a side effect, which is theorized by Matt when he notices Sebastian's increasingly erratic behaviour. Thing is ? We don't see any actual proof of that and as a matter of fact we see proof of the contrary. It was thought because the gorilla subjected to the experiments shown aggressive behaviour that maybe it had something to do with Sebastian going mad, but I didn't see that as so much proof as much as an aggressive animal like a gorilla might be a little unhinged after being subjected to experiments. That said, we do see Sebastian's increasing frustration as his attempts at a reverse serum fail and having to spend ten days being monitored in the facility. Besides that, later on Matt asks Sebastian if it was the serum or the power that made him snap, and we get quite a bit of evidence it was the latter.

Now prior to this transformation, Sebastian...wasn't the nicest guy; sure he seemed to be at least Affably Evil in that he acted like a charismatic and sarcastic friend to his colleagues - there's even a sequence at the start where you could call him "the fun kind of asshole" (when he and Matt make something of a game in trying to catch a gorilla that's gotten loose and made a bet on it). One thing that isn't subtle is his extreme ego, something he is unabashed about, sarcastically comparing himself to God and admits to a lack of empathy regarding animal tests. Yes he does Pet the Dog early in the movie but then he goes and smashes the dog to death. In fact his bruised ego is pretty much what finally made him snap which was when he found out Linda and Matt where together for which he felt like a scorned lover.

But even at the beginning we see signs that he was a little unhinged just really good at keeping himself in check and by the third act is just giving in to all his dark impulses. All that molesting his female colleagues (and part of his "pranks") and spying on Rhona Mitra was well before his Sanity Slippage and he deals with his first night of "freedom" he rapes Mitra's character because "Why not ?" Also just before he experiments on himself he makes an awkward attempt of a joke about Superman raping Wonder Woman. During the first third of the movie, he does seem to care about his staff to some degree and implies he wants to reconcile with Linda but not only is that all out the window by the climax, we still have those hints of darkness within his character.

And for the record, his descent into villainy isn't played for tragedy or nothing - none of the characters sympathize with him as the film goes on especially when he goes off the deep end.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#136630: Nov 17th 2018 at 5:56:23 PM

[tup] Sebastian

Funny this is the 2nd CM played by Kevin Bacon with the name Sebastian

Edited by G-Editor on Nov 17th 2018 at 3:57:12 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#136631: Nov 17th 2018 at 6:16:09 PM

[tup] Joachim, Carter, Don, Porter, Slaycroft, Micoh and Sebastion

Edited by TheImmortalAngelNewton on Nov 17th 2018 at 6:16:35 AM

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
MenInGreyToBlak V Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#136633: Nov 17th 2018 at 6:37:16 PM

[tup] Sebastian Caine

I actually may have see parts of that movie someday. Now that I think about it.

Watch me destroying my country
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#136637: Nov 17th 2018 at 7:24:16 PM

Yes to Micah but not sure on Caine... I remember we already had another invisible man rejected despite being a dick because it was ruled the serum made his agency too questionable and it sounds like this film also toys with the idea that it could have driven him off the deep end.

[down] My bad, misread that: tentative yeah in that case.

Edited by 43110 on Nov 17th 2018 at 10:43:01 AM

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#136638: Nov 17th 2018 at 7:38:27 PM

[up] Apparently the film shows proof of the contrary, so I'll give a [tup]

RevanBane Since: Sep, 2018
#136639: Nov 17th 2018 at 8:17:23 PM

I'm not sure about Micah Bell. I mean, we have gangs like Murfree Brood, a Cannibal Clan of mass murdering psychopaths. Then we have the Skinner Brothers, a brutal gang of lunatics who mutilate and torture their victims. They also like scalping them and slowly roasting them to death over an open fire For the Evulz. As already mentioned, the heinous standard for Red Dead Redemption is pretty high. Is Micah still heinous?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#136640: Nov 17th 2018 at 8:19:02 PM

For bodycount and sheer viciousness, I'd say yes.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#136641: Nov 17th 2018 at 9:33:54 PM

[tup]Micah and Sebastian.

Why so serious?
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#136642: Nov 17th 2018 at 9:36:55 PM

[tup] Micah

As for Sebastian, there's a sequel. Anything of note there?

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#136643: Nov 17th 2018 at 9:41:43 PM

No. It's stand alone.

Also forgot to add in the EP, the reason why he turned himself invisible ? He wanted to see what it was like.

Edited by Beast on Nov 17th 2018 at 11:45:53 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#136645: Nov 17th 2018 at 10:34:41 PM

Haven’t read it, but very late [tup] to Brockman. Also, I said no before on Sebastian, but I’ll change to a [tup] because yeah, ultimately the perceived tragedy of his situation is lost by the fact that even without the invisibility, it would have been in his character.

Saw Crimes of Grindelwald tonight and have thoughts to say the least. Please PM to discuss.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Nov 18th 2018 at 8:44:12 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#136646: Nov 17th 2018 at 11:07:18 PM

[tup]Slayer, Porter, Micah and Sebastain

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#136647: Nov 17th 2018 at 11:30:43 PM

Yes to Sebastian and Micah. The latter's actions reminds me a bit of Shira. Proving a man with lower resources can be as horrible when used into it's fullest potential.

Anyways, before I do my writeups, got one more candidate that I'm unsure of. But special thanks on Mir for recommending this movie. Without further ado, let's begin the post shall we.

What's the Work

Alright, so the work here is called The Golden Child. An Eddie Murphy film. The story? I'm just going to copy paste what's the story about from the TV Tropes page:

"Chandler Jarrell is a private detective/social worker specializing in missing children who is recruited by Kee Nang to come to Tibet to locate and rescue the Golden Child, a boy with mystic powers who has been kidnapped by demonic forces. The Big Bad, a sorcerer named Sardo Numspa, wishes to kill the child to bring about the rule of evil on Earth, but must do so at a specific time with a specific ritual. Jarrell, a cynic and skeptic, is forced to come to terms with the supernatural elements of the world, as he is the Chosen One who is fated to protect the child. First, however, he must undergo his own training at the hands of "The Old Man", a Trickster Mentor played by Victor Wong, and recover the Ajanti dagger that is the only hope of killing Numspa... or the Golden Child."

Now after reading the synopsis, you know whom I want to bring right? Meet the character that was played by Charles Dance, Sardo Numspa.

Who is He/What Has He Done

Alright, so Sardo Numspa is a mysterious man who tries to retrieve the Golden Child for some sinister purposes. To this end, he came all the way from USA to Tibet, where the Golden Child is located, and after he arrived in the monastery that contains the Golden Child, Numspa orders his men to massacre every monk that was in the monastery and Numspa himself abducts the Golden Child which leads the change of point of view on Eddie Murphy's character, Chandler Jarrell...

See, here's the thing about Chandler, he is a social worker/detective who tries to find a child named Cheryll Mosley who went missing several weeks ago. As a result, he then got encountered by a mysterious woman, Kee Nang, and asked Chandler so that he could join her side to retrieve the Golden Child back and knows who kidnap Cheryll. At first, Chandler doesn't seem to take this seriously until tomorrow, he found the dead body of Cheryll who got murdered in an abandoned house and said house is smeared with a Tibetan Graffiti and also has a pot full-of blood soaked oatmeal.

It was revealed that Cheryll was murdered by one of Numspa's henchmen, Tommy Tong, so that he could obtain her dirty blood so that he could harm the Golden Child by forcing him to eat the same oatmeal smeared with blood. It was revealed that Numspa killed Tommy because he found him to be a potential traitor that could harm his plan (Despite Tommy tries to attack the heroes at first) and then tries to obtain the artifact known as the Ajanti Dagger in order to murder the Golden Child and unleash the hordes of demons from hell so that he can rule the world.

To obtain the Ajanti Dagger, Numspa then draws Chandler into the dream that was controlled by him and make some negotiations so that he could obtain the dagger. However, Chandler refuses and as a result, Numspa gave him a burn mark as a reminder. And when Chandler tries to save Kee in the dream controlled by Numspa, he then orders his men to attack Chandler, grinning at his helplessness. Fortunately, Chandler woke up from the nightmare and then went to Tibet together with Kee in order to obtain the dagger.

After the two obtained the Dagger, Numspa then tries to have Chandler arrested which the latter willingly wants to be arrested in order to escape Numspa clutches which he did. After Chandler escaped from Numspa's clutches, he then orders his men to attack him and obtain his dagger. After the big fight, Numspa then tries to shot a bow towards Chandler. Chandler survived but unfortunately, Kee took a blow from Numspa's attack and in her final moments, she then tries to confess her love with Chandler.

However, even if Kee is dead, there's still hope for Chandler to revive Kee by tracking the Golden Child into Numspa's hideout. After the Golden Child is released, he then encounters Numspa who turns himself into a demon. After the huge chase, Chandler and the child manages to escape to a nearby warehouse.

Seemingly defeated by getting buried under the falling masonry in the warehouse and the heroes lost the dagger, Numspa, badly injured, then went into the building that store Kee's body and tries to attack the heroes for the last resort. However, Chandler and the Golden Child manages to overpower Numspa with Chandler stabs Numspa with a dagger through his heart. Killing the maniacal sorcerer for good.

Heinous Standard

Big Bad, sets it with his attempt to unleash the evil hordes through Earth, massacring some monks in the monastery and killing some children in order to harm the Golden Child. Do I need to say more? Oh yeah, I forgot that this is not the first time that Numspa attempts to murder the Golden Child as the first Golden Child? Died by getting murdered as far as I recall so yeah. Easy pass.

Freudian Excuse/Mitigating Factors

Okee dokee, here's where it gets tricky. So in one scene, Numspa? Was receiving the orders from an unknown master from Hell in order to free him and the rest of demon hoardes so that he could turn the Earth into a living hell and this was not downplayed at any slightest. This could affect his agency but I'm inclined to say Numspa passes a bit due to him willingly tries to execute said orders and he does show some of his sadism when seeing Chandler getting beaten up by his mooks when trying to save Kee in the Dream that was controlled by him. That and I felt that he went a bit overboard by massacring the monks and murders a child just to harm the Golden Child because why not? So yeah... I'm still torn on this one.

Final Verdict

Your call. Even if he doesn't qualify, I'm fine with it but I want to say this: This film is one of the most underrated film ever and is one of Eddie Murphy's hidden gems for me and I think I'm extremely recommend this film to you guys as I think both Murphy and Dance have a bit of a fun with their role so yeah.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#136648: Nov 17th 2018 at 11:37:41 PM

[tup] to sardo

I didn't check out the ymmv page so I more or less just assumed he counted til now Hm. Agreed the movie is criminally underated

Edited by Kylotrope on Nov 17th 2018 at 11:39:49 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#136649: Nov 17th 2018 at 11:44:16 PM

It sounds like Sardo Numspa comes off a bit more like a Psycho Supporter. I don't see much difference between him and Leilah, so [tup].

Also [tup] for Micah Bell and Sebastian Caine.

Also also got the write-up for Dan Carter done.

C-12: Final Resistance: Major Dan Carter is a high-ranking official within the alien army. A former soldier aiding the resistance, Dan defected and joined the aliens once he realized humanity was losing the fight, and willingly allowed himself to be turned into a cyborg. As a cyborg, Dan helped the aliens kill members of the resistance and kidnap humans so they could be converted into cyborg soldiers for the aliens' armies. After the resistance starts to heavily sabotage the aliens' plans, Dan kidnaps his own wife, Dr. Carter, in hopes of having her turned into a cyborg, and also in an attempt to incapacitate the resistance's morale. When Dan discovers that the aliens plan on poisoning Earth's atmosphere in order to wipe out all life on the planet, Dan is more than happy leaving humanity to die all so he can save himself.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend

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