During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
for Don Burnside, although I would prefer if we don't "cut corners" to talk about certain candidates in the future.
Edited by Tyk5919 on Nov 17th 2018 at 3:11:19 PM
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Thanks for the response Lighty. As for my question, it was more for Men In Grey To Black than for myself, since they're the one who's reserved the right to start any discussion to be had on it, and the situation with the discussion date seemed to be getting complicated. And Don Burnside seems like a keeper, so while I'm at it, I'll add a yes for him.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Ooh, Happy Birthday there!
Edited by Devoted2Nintendo on Nov 17th 2018 at 3:43:38 PM
to Dan and Don.
Oh and also todays my birthday just turned 22!
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Don Burnside
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Happy birthday!
Edited by KazuyaProta on Nov 17th 2018 at 3:30:25 PM
Watch me destroying my country
Goku Black
Happy birthday G
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
@G-Editor: Happy Reason To Explode Confetti Poppers and Launchers Day.
-blows confetti launcher in your face-
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Happy b-day!
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Happy birthday G.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Happy day of your birth G! I send upon you an emoji cake; unfortunately you can't eat it be- well because it's a digital image 🎂
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Goku Black
I found this in Slade in Flame
- Complete Monster: Ron Harding, in spades. A greedy, violent Corrupt Corporate Executive who doesn't care about the band, takes a huge chunk of their earnings and treats them like dirt when they're signed to him and drops them as soon as they start to rebel. However, as soon as the band sign to another label and manager and become a success, he immediately tries to get a stake of their earnings, first by trying to use their old contract to steal a portion of their earnings for himself, and when that plan fails, resorts to using his thugs to sever Jack Daniels' toes for stealing Flame's old contract and to threatening Seymour's daughter by sending his thugs to wreck her room in order to scare him into giving Harding control of Flame.
....Uh is this it ? Like he sounds like a dick but there doesnt seem to be alot heinous wise in this entry
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Cut it. That's jerkass, with one crossing of the MEH, but not a CM.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Handsome Head of Hyperion
Burnside. Happy B-Day, G!
Two more potential Batman baddies. Far less sure on these than I was Whisper, but I figure they warrant some discussion. From Batman: Venom by Dennis O'Neil.
Who are Dr. Randolph Porter and General Timothy Slaycroft? What have they done?
Randolph Porter is a medicinal doctor who was booted from a university he taught at after he poisoned two of his students with an experimental drug. One of them committed suicide, the other was reduced to a permanent psychosis. In the present, Porter develops a few new drugs, namely one that increases his own intelligence, which he also specifically designs to dampen and eventually eliminate his ability to have emotional attachments. With the chemical working, Porter is able to enact the first part of a master plan, staging the kidnapping of his child daughter, and leaving her tied up in a filling-water chamber, just so Batman can try and then fail to save her, watching the girl drown before his eyes.
Feeling zero remorse for his daughter's demise, Porter then convinces Batman he could have saved her if he was using an experimental steroid Porter has developed, and gives several to Batman to use. Eventually, Batman becomes addicted to the chemicals, becoming more and more violent and nearly killing several criminals over several months.
We meet Porter's backer, General Timothy Slaycroft, at this point. A cruel war "hero," Slaycroft has come under fire over the years due to the fact that, as a training master at a military installation, no fewer than 18 men have died under his command, which as we later learn, was due to Slaycroft's absolutely brutal training methods killing the men. Slaycroft also murdered his own wife due to the fact that he believed she was "weakening" their mentally-slow son Timmy.
With the duo of villains trying to use an addicted Batman as an assassin to murder Jim Gordon for investigating their underground activities, they also have several of their own men murdered to eliminate loose ends before fleeing America for Santa Prisca.
In Santa Prisca, Slaycroft and Porter begin experimenting on Slaycroft's own teenaged son Timmy, eventually performing horrifying surgery on him that leaves him a Frankenstein-like monster of a man. Timmy had grown close to and developed a relationship with a local young woman, who Slaycroft and Porter order Timmy to rape, and, when the girl puts up too much resistance, simply has him bash her skull in.
Experimenting on nearly half a dozen other men and turning them into "zombie soldiers" as Porter calls them, Slaycroft and Porter leads them in a massacre of a nearby village as a test run, leaving not a man, woman, or child alive, notably snapping the neck of an elderly woman after murdering her grandson in front of her.
As Batman—having spent months in agonizing withdrawals from Porter's drug—and his loyal butler Alfred arrive in Santa Prisca, Porter and Slaycroft capture Alfred and tie him to posts in the ocean to be eaten by sharks so as to lure Batman in to be killed as well, however Batman fights off the sharks (without shark-repellent!) and enables Alfred to escape before being captured himself.
As Porter concocts and sells a much more addictive and lethal brand of cocaine and sells it off to finance his research, he throws the captured Batman into a cell that will slowly fill with water over the course of a couple days, and leaves him a bag of the steroid pills, claiming that getting re-hooked on them will be the only way to escape.
Porter and Slaycroft plan to create more mutilated, hypnotized super soldiers, then lead them on a slaughter campaign in a foreign country before returning to America to bask in the glory such a scientific and military-applicable bout of research they have completed.
Slaycroft betrays and brutally tortures Porter after deciding he has outlived his usefulness, and though Batman saves Porter, the mad doctor uses the opportunity to force Timmy to murder his own father, destroying what little was left of his sanity and breaking his mind completely.
With Slaycroft dead, Porter himself is locked away... unfortunately, due to being addicted to his own intelligence-boosting pills, only a few days without them throws him into horrific withdrawals, leasing to his death.
Porter's research would later go on to e used to create Venom, famously used by recurring Batman foe Bane.
Do they have any Freudian Excuses or redeeming features?
None between the two. Porter deliberately and knowing too emotion-dampening pills so he wouldn't feel anything for sacrificing and drowning his own daughter, and commits his crimes just for fame. Slaycroft uses his son as a guinea pig and soldier, claiming to want to turn him into a "man", but it's just his ego of wanting a powerful legacy and son. He cares nothing for him as a person, and commits his crimes just for recognition of his military prowess and to destroy the "godless hordes" outside of America.
Are they sufficiently heinous?
This is where doubt might creep in, they're very much different than many of Batman's rogues in that they're not costumed mass murderers, but rather more realistic, ruthless monsters. Whether this can be used to help their qualifications is debatable, but they do have rather impressive rapsheets for villains with very little resources or anything remotely "special" about them.
Individually, Porter drowns his own child daughter, addicts Batman to drugs and tries to drive him insane, performs nightmarish experiments and brainwashing on several soldiers to make them "zombies," and ultimately forces Timmy to murder his own father as payback for Slaycroft, while Slaycroft kills his own wife, gets over a dozen of trainee soldiers killed with his brutal training methods, allows Porter to turn his son into a beast, and betrays and brutally tortures Porter.
Together, they murder several of their own men, lead a massacre of a village (with plans to take it to a much higher-scale and bodycount), and order a brainwashed Timmy to rape his girlfriend, then settle for just having his bash her to death against a wall.
Final Verdict?
Leaning slight , as I think Porter deliberately taking medicine to grow apathetic towards his daughter just so he can drown her as part of a plan and the absolutely dreadful treatment Slaycroft gives his son gives them somewhat of a personal, despicable edge over just being mass murdering pshchopaths, but I don't feel too terribly strongly on them and wouldn't be surprised if they are down voted, just figured they were worth discussing.
HBD G! I forgot to mention I myself turned 24 almost two weeks ago. Am I one of the oldest here or are there just so many who are in their early-20s?
I assume Ambar is also one of the oldest?
Edited by Kookosbanaani on Nov 17th 2018 at 11:38:49 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Nah dude, I think I'm the oldest. I'll be 35 on the 29th, and I think Lighty's in his late 20s?
EDIT: I don't know Ambar's age.
As for the Venom duo: I WANNA say yes, but the franchise has such a high standard. Even Abattoir tried to kill thousands. Yet they both seem loathsome. I'll give a slight yes; more so for Porter.
Edited by ACW on Nov 17th 2018 at 4:43:27 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
HBD My dude @G-Editor and yes to the candidate that I missed I guess. i'm still rather young compared to you guys :P
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Nov 17th 2018 at 4:47:51 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Porter and Slaycroft.
And with a title like that I am very dissapointed this wasn't a Marvel DC crossover.
Edited by Beast on Nov 17th 2018 at 3:52:02 AM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Porter and Slaycroft.
Edited by Bullman on Nov 17th 2018 at 4:53:21 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Port & Slayer.
To Port & Slayer
Joachim, Carter, Don, Porter and Slaycroft
Depotholing the Man.
- Hush: The nameless serial killer is introduced gutting Maddie's neighbor Sarah on Maddie's front steps. When he realizes Maddie is deaf, believing she's easy prey, he torments her relentlessly, with clear intent to torture and rape her if the mood takes him. When Sarah's boyfriend John arrives, the killer murders him too and decides to kill Maddie's cat and nail it to the door. When Maddie fights back, the killer traps her hand in the glass door and brutally stomps on it out of spite for being injured. It is also revealed that he's got at least 12 other victims from similar "outings".
Edited by DemonDuckofDoom on Nov 17th 2018 at 2:26:49 AM
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
for Dr. Randolph Porter and General Timothy Slaycroft. Subtle last name there.
Yea there. Also yes to the Himmler quote.
...Himmler may actually be a CM in Vampire the Masquerade as well. One of White Wolf's...perhaps less intelligent writing decisions.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Wait...how come? Making Himmler a CM doesn't seem like a bad writing decision. Cliched, maybe. But bad?
How many incarnations of him do we have? There's the new one, the one from The Man in the High Castle, and the one from The Anglo/American – Nazi War, for starters.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
When you make Himmler a vampire Tremere leading 'The Fourth Reich' my reaction is "I'm sorry, what was that there?"
Especially when White Wolf tends to, shall we say, be a tad more delicate, generally speaking, with WW 2 (canonically one of the few events in human history the Kindred had nothing to do with)
Edited by Lightysnake on Nov 17th 2018 at 3:12:26 AM
Is this McDermott's first CM?
Sure to the quote.
Edited by ACW on Nov 17th 2018 at 3:06:06 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts