Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

@ACW When was Dr. Facilier voted up? To me, he never stood out as nothing more than a pretty standard villain for a saturday morning cartoon. More like the level of Jafar IIRC. But then again, it's been years since I last saw the film and I remember the plot being overly convoluted.

So that counts as a Fate Worse than Death / And I Must Scream? That's pretty unique for a Disney villain.

Edited by Kookosbanaani on Nov 14th 2018 at 11:26:18 AM

to that image. Yikes.

As for Facilier, Scraggle got him voted up fairly recently. I think the thing that pushed him into CM territory was him willing to sell are the souls of New Orleans to the "Friends".

@ACW Wanna add that image on the drafts?

Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Nov 14th 2018 at 5:11:35 PM

I have a candidate: The version of Chrysalis from the audio drama adaptation of Daughter of Discord.

What is the work?

Daughter of Discord is a sequel to Disney Fanatic 2364's fanfic Brideof Discord. Bride of Discord was an mlp fic that was based off of Disneys Beauty and The Beast. It took lace in an alternate universe where Discord managed to escape being turned to stone at the end of Return of Harmony. The fic was very popular, getting sequels and an audio adaptation as well as an audio adaptation of the first sequel, Daughter of Discord.

What does she do?

In this story, Chrysalis befriended Discord when they were both kids. Discord lived alone in a cave until he met her. Chrysalis's mother Queen Arachne told her to inform Discord that he could go to Equestria, saying that the ponies would accept him. In truth, Arachne explained to Chrysalis that the ponies would call him a freak because of his powers, and he would go on a rampage, leaving Equestria weakened for the changelings to attack. Chrysalis was initially against the idea, as she considered Discord a friend however, she agreed when Arachne told her that if the plan worked and they were able to take over Equestria, she would allow her to take Discord as a mate.

Years later, Arachne sent a teenage Chrysalis to Equestria to see why Discord had not yet gone on a rampage. Upon arriving, Chrysalis discovered that the ponies had actually been very welcoming. Chrysalis was told that if this were the case, she should try and convince Discord to start misusing his powers. Chrysalis had developed a crush on Discord, and so she was reluctant to ruin his life in Equestria, however, upon hearing that Discord may be developing feelings for Celestia, she snapped and decided to ruin things for him out of spite due to him rejecting her (completely ignoring the fact that he did not even have any idea that she even had a crush on him). Chrysalis convinced Discord to start using his powers to entertain himself. This gradually led to him misusing his powers and getting the ponies to hate him. When the ponies started calling him a freak, Chrysalis appeared in the form of Celestia to tell him that he's no friend of hers, that she should have never let him into Equestria, and that he's nothing but a freak.

Believing that Celestia had betrayed him, Discord snapped and tried to take over Equestria by force, leading to his original imprisonment in stone. Despite this, Equestria was not left radically weakened by his rampage, and the changelings were unable to take over. After Discord managed to escape reimprisonment 1000 years later, Chrysalis reappeared to him while he was hiding away from Equestria to reveal that Celestia never said those things to him and that it was her and she was the reason he got turned to stone originally. This leads to the two becoming mortal enemies.

At the time the main story of Daughter of Discord is set, Discord has reformed and fathered a child, Screwball, with Fluttershy. When Chrysalis's son, Mothball, meets and befriends Screwball, Chrysalis comes up with a plan to use his friendship with her to take over Equestria.

Years later, a teenage Mothball meets back up with Screwball at the Grand Galloping Gala. When Mothball returns to the hive he tells Chrysalis that he loves Screwball and wants no part in Chrysalis's plans anymore. Chrysalis threatens to kill Screwball unless Mothball tells her everything he has learned about Screwball. After squeezing her son for information, Chrysalis has him locked up while she sends changelings to kidnap Screwballs new baby brother Zany and bring him back to the hive for the changelings to feed on.

With Zany gone, Chrysalis takes his place. She slowly feeds off of Discord and screwballs love for Zany and drains them of their magic. When she and Screwball are alone, Chrysalis reveals herself and, just for kicks, lies to Screwball that Mothball never loved her and was helping her the entire time by giving her information, such as how Screwball had a new baby brother. Screwball barely manages to escape.

Screwball returns to Ponyville and reveals that Chrysalis had taken Zanys place. Her cover blown, Chrysalis drops her disguise and summons her changeling army. Having absorbed most of Discord and Screwballs magic, she believes she can now take over Equestria. Chrysalis orders her army to kill the Mane 6 while she deals with the weakened Discord, and during the battle, she has her changelings take on the forms of the Mane 6's families, specifically their husbands and children (all of them except Twilight had gotten married by this point), taunting them by saying how poor they are with their families, such as taking on the forms of their children and telling them they are terrible mothers and never spend much time with them. During the battle, Chrysalis seemingly kills Fluttershy with a blast of magic. As Everyone mourns, Chrysalis taunts Discord, before mortally wounding him. Before she can finish him off, Screwball comes in to try and stop her, having recovered most of her magic. Chrysalis nearly kills one of her changelings for trying to jump in and help her, saying she will fight by herself.

Mothball returns, having managed to escape and rescue Zany, and confronts his mother about everything she has done. Chrysalis simply decides to murder him along with Screwball. Through The Powerof Love, Screwball and Mothball ae able to send the changelings flying away, much like Cadance and Shining Armor did. It is also revealed that Fluttershy was merely knocked out and survived.

Heinousness?

Okay, so let's add up. She ruined Discords life in Equestria and made him go on a rampage and get turned to stone, she showed up just to taunt him about it, she kidnapped a baby and took it back to the hive to be fed on, she lied to Screball about her son never loving her just to hurt her, she had her army take on the forms of the heroes loved ones to bring up the issues they have with their family and invoke Break Them by Talking, she nearly killed Fluttershy and taunted Discord about it before mortally wounding him, she nearly killed one of her men for trying to help her in her fight, and she tried to kill two teenagers, one of them being her own son. All of that added together seems like enough to me.

Mitigating factors?

She Used To Bea Sweet Kid, but that was over a thousand years ago. She cites Discord rejecting her as her reason for being evil, completely ignoring the fact that he had no idea she even had any feelings for him at all, as she never confronted him about it, something Discord pints out in the climax when he hears her motive. This also only gives her a motive for what she does to Discord and his family, and has nothing o do with her desire to take over Equestria. It's pointed out in the story that she blames others for her actions.

It is stated that she wanted her son Mothball to love her, however, this does not stop her from not loving him and trying to kill him at the end.

The fanfic had a second sequel, Son In Law of Discord, where she has a Heel Realization near the end of her life, and tries to make amends with Mothball and Discord before dying. However, the creator has stated they are not doing an audio drama of Son In Law, so the audio drama series ends without this.

Does the work stick to the tone of the original series?

For the most part, yes. There are no deaths and there is no gore or profanity or anything like that. It's pretty much Original Flavor. The most I can say is that, unlike the canon series, Never Say "Die" is completely averted here, as words like death and kill are clearly used, and it is made very clear that she intends to kill the protagonists. It can also get a bit darker at times, like when Chrysalis says she is going to kill her own son.

Added in Chilling Adventures of Sabrina

• Somehow, Harvey's mundane, but horribly abusive father manages to be an equally, if not more despicable character. A disgusting piece of work who is physically violent with his kids and even consigns his eldest son to certain death just to maximize the damages payout from the bank, many were hoping he wouldn't survive the night the red angel came to town.

That's a terrible write up. Having seen the show, I agree Harvey's father is a Hate Sink but he's not sufficiently heinous.

Susie and Xue Dragon and Chrysalis due to being insufficiently heinous.

Insufficiently heinous? After she tried to kill her own son and his girlfriend, both of them young teens, and have her hive feed on a baby?

Edited by bobg on Nov 14th 2018 at 3:52:31 AM

Found a mistake for ‘’Platoon’’. The name of the character that Barnes goads into killing him is named Chris Taylor, not Charlie Taylor (the name of the actor who played Chris is Charlie Sheen, but he’s not The Danza for this film).

So Facilier got upvoted? Didn't See That Coming.

Edited by k410ren on Nov 14th 2018 at 7:23:11 AM

So I read the argument against Laude, well I'm going to bring a few points.

Many of these redeeming moments happened before Laude's action in Ar Tonelico 2, when he wasn't yet a Complete Monster. His actions that put him their is his actions in the 2nd game which is after these good moments. There's also an absence of on-screen moments that shows redeeming Laude, because the characters and NP Cs can talk about how good is Laude, but we never see these moments except flashbacks which is beyond his actions in the 2nd game.

Another thing, the way Laude portrayed himself in the 2nd game was that of a devious and deceitful old man who would do anything reach his goals. His goals may seem noble, trying to save the entire planet from the wrath of the will of the planet, but Laude said himself in his final scene "I can finally return home as hero!", which shows what Laude end goal warped into by the end of his story. Pride and glory.

And before you argue that Jakuri was worse, Jakuri redeemed herself and showed complete guilt in her actions and showed reasoning in her cosmosphere about her mission. Laude showed no redeeming moments at all in this game, and any given to him in the 3rd was gone by the events of the 2nd since all of his redeeming moments were in the past which completely faded away. Your saying a man who may have done a lot good before, who then turned to a horrifying scientist that tortured, experimented and even killed Reyvateils, innocent Reyvateils not evenly remotely involve with the Reyvateils in his own world including children, actively caused this world from losing it's only hope like willing to sacrifice one of the two heroines who are needed to save Metafalls, and kidnapped the mother of both of them and attempted to use song magic that might've ended up using one of the two's soul for the new Heart of the Land which again would doom this world.

He's a case of not starting as a monster, but gradually became one by the end of his story. He might have good causes, which he lost sight off and love ones he completely forgotten by never showing any mention of them. Here's my big counter-point to Aquagon's argument. Was there any mention of anything of this during his time at Metafalls? None, and when he did finally get the Heart of the Land, he only cheered of returning to his home-world as a hero.

And one last thing: heinousness. Every character had shown an act of redemption at one point, Jakuri becoming one of the good guys, Infel supporting Cloche when summoning Metafalica, Alfman committing a last stand for the heroes, Targana supporting them by the end. Laude is the only one absent of one to.

Any argument Aquagon got is either off-screen due to only being mentioned in dialogue but never shown, or as my argument mentioned, took place before his evil actions which makes him a case of someone who became a monster later on, and not from the beginning. Whether you agree or not is up to you, but I'll just say my piece.

Being redeemed and heinousness are two separate things.

I fixed the Platoon thing.

Here's the potholed Scar:

• The Lion King: Scar is the envious younger brother of King Mufasa who, upon losing his position as next in line to the throne by the birth of his nephew Simba, sought to take it by force. First tricking the young Simba and his friend Nala into entering the Elephant Graveyard to be killed by his hyena henchmen, Scar next orchestrates a wildebeest stampede and tosses Mufasa to his death after he attempts to rescue his son. Blaming a grief-stricken Simba for his father's murder, Scar forces him into exile before commanding the hyenas to finish him off. Upon taking control, Scar's incompetence as king leads to a famine, with Scar uncaring that he is sentencing everyone to death, even striking Mufasa's widow Sarabi unconscious when she criticizes his rule. Upon Simba's return, Scar takes advantage of Simba's lingering guilt over his father's death to attempt to execute him publicly, pausing only to mockingly reveal his role in Mufasa's death. Later, to save his own life, he attempts to foist the blame on his hyena henchmen before attempting to kill Simba, even after the latter spares his life.

Edited by ACW on Nov 14th 2018 at 9:15:17 AM

Btw... David Productions just announced a new anime for Fire Force. Dibs on that? Especially for the manga. I'm also going to figure out if Dr. Stone will have an anime adaptation or not.

Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Nov 14th 2018 at 8:59:00 PM

I guess, but even then Laude still exceeds the heinousness factor with his torture and experiments on numerous innocent victims including children that many result to death, which while ordered by Alfman, still did willingly and for selfish purpose rather then Alfman wanting an army in hope's of going to war for a chance of saving Metafalls.

I think to sum my argument, it's a cause of a person once a good man, who changed to the point that good side of his has completely gone and his actions far exceed any excuse or good moments he had. Ar Tonelico 3 added character to him about how he was like in the past, but doesn't change his character in the 2nd game.

Edited by TheImmortalAngelNewton on Nov 14th 2018 at 6:09:04 AM

So the stuff in Ar Tonelico 3 actually came before his CM moments in the second game?

Yes, before he came to Metafalls, and by the 2nd game he completely stop showing any of those redeeming moments. It might've been the stress of finding the Heart of the Land or the pressure, but even then he shows early on a pretty sadistic side of his and that itself is not a valid excuse of mass torture, experimentation and killing of people who has their own families and own causes. By the end his goal warped to fame and glory.

What about that last bit:

Edited by ACW on Nov 14th 2018 at 9:34:48 AM

That was a mistake, honestly should've corrected it earlier but completely forgotten because of business in my real life. Thanks for pointing it out.

Solid no to Chrysalis. As usual, I think her heinousness is being well oversold and she doesn't do that much.

Well, let me change that now.

No to Chrysalis.

Chrysalsis

Thanks. Sorry for the excessive word use and honestly aggressive push towards Laude.

There's the thing though that the IPD experimentation was mostly ordered by Alfman, and while you use the fact he did a "last stand" for the heroes (false, as he survived it and infuriatingly, he only went to Sol Cluster afterwards to live as a sky pirate instead of staying in Metafalss to face the crimes he had committed) to not include him as a complete monster, I don't see how that makes him different from Laude.

Because, let's see: Alfman committed a coup d'etat that caused the deaths of the Pope and Luca's parents, forced Reisha and Batz into hiding to protect her, and thanks to his policies multiple families were torn apart and Reyvateils used as lab rats to make soldiers for his army, even going to the point of making illegal the only way to actually quell the destructive outbreaks IPDs have: Dive Therapy, as well as also institutionalizing a discredit campaign for the profession based on lies and slander. And whenever anybody tried speaking against him or his policies, they either got demoted to other posts or (like in Cloche's case) threatened with murder, being sent to prison or used as a guinea pig. And let's not forget he was attempting to run away from Metafalss with the Heart produced by the faulty Metafalica when he saw the created land was a failure.

The only thing he has going for him is the fact that he believes his measures will help with Metafalica's creation (false: the Replekia attack he made Cloche use would have destroyed Metafalss if Raki hadn't deflected it), and that his measures for the IPDs are only slightly more "lenient" than those of the previous regimes, as the IPDs were killed on sight instead of just being imprisoned.

And for Laude, I'll just add that he spent all those years in Metafalss requesting for reinforcements and help from Sol Cluster, but the chairman of the Archia Think Tank that acted as his replacement, Raphael, purposely ignored all these hails, as he shipped him to Metafalss just as a way to get rid of him because he was in the way of his ambitions.

Edited by aquagon on Nov 14th 2018 at 7:07:04 AM

Chrysalis

Aquagon, do you even understand how a Complete Monster works? Alfman's action may be bad, but not only does he redeem himself through a Heroic Sacrifice at the end of the game, but had a more sympathetic cause considering he's fighting to actually save Metafalls. Also it's not like Alfman ask Laude to be a sadist in his experiments like he did to Cloche which traumatize her too suppress her memories and like I mentioned were looking Laude's action in the 2nd game and no it doesn't exclude him. Also the reinforcements was too help him find the Heart of the Land, not really to help Metafalls since he never really cared about it. And I also said he pretty much drop his morals and redeeming traits by the 2nd game so it's doesn't really count.

Hold on. Let me say again: One can be a Well-Intentioned Extremist who is redeemed, but still commit more heinous acts than someone who's a Card-Carrying Villain motivated by For the Evulz. In such a case, neither would count (the former for obvious reasons, the latter due to being out-heinoused).