During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Well, seeing as how everyone who voted on him said yes, the voting seems to be finished, and the other recently approved cases are going up, this seems like as good a time as any to attempt Winslow Schott/Toyman's write-up. Of course, knowing me and my writing style, it's bound to need at least a little trimming down length-wise, so I invite anyone to pitch in and help me after I put out what will likely be the draft before it's good enough to put on the appropriate pages. Oh, and since the list of examples from Smallville seem to be in order of appearance, he would go between Braniac and LX-3. So here we go:
Winslow Scott, better known as the Toyman, is a brilliant, but childishly deranged Mad Artist who specializes in placing intricate bombs in toys and unsuspecting locations. Wanting revenge against Oliver Queen for firing him from his company after he displayed increasingly disturbing behavior, he first shows up as an assassin working for the crippled Lex Luthor, placing a bomb in a Luthor Corp meeting room, killing the entire Board of Directors, with only Oliver himself surviving the blast. He also places a kryptonite bomb on top of the Daily Planet that's capable of destroying half of Metropolis, forcing Clark Kent and Lana Lang into a Sadistic Choice, resulting in Lana absorbing all the kryptonite into her body, permanently sabotaging their relationship. Later resurfacing, more set on revenge against Oliver than ever for framing him for Lex's murder, Toyman captures roughly a dozen people and leaves them Bound and Gagged in one of Queen Industries' factories along with an innocent man he's strapped a set of explosives to, intent on blowing them up with the factory just to "smoke Oliver out of hiding". He then places a pressure plate bomb at a shareholder's meeting Oliver makes a speech at, threatening to blow up everyone at the gala unless he confesses his murder, only to reveal he's sent a robotic replica of himself there with a timed detonator to ensure it goes off whether he caves into his demands or not. While placed in solitary confinement, he assembles and masterminds Marionette Ventures, a group of super villains posing as a company, who go around forcibly buying out every business above Metropolis' aquifer in order to take complete control of the city's water supply, then hold it back to force them to comply with any of their demands. When a super-powered Lois Lane tries to stop him, he uses her feelings for Clark Kent, who's presently de-powered, to manipulate her into putting on a mind control diode under the promise that she'll save his life... only to send her as his puppet to kill him instead. Consistently displaying a callous disregard for human life, either while attempting to accomplish his goals or simply to play his twisted "games", Toyman is easily one of the most depraved humans in the series, and stands among the worst of Smallville's rogues gallery.
Ugh, blast it all. (no pun intended, heh heh). I knew it would be at least a little too long, but this is about twice the length of some of the other entries it would go alongside. Believe me, I really put a lot of thought into how to keep each each of his crimes as abbreviated as possible without leaving out anything important, but the problem is despite making only 3 appearances, he has all these different notable credits, and leaving any of them out entirely feels wrong. Feel free to shorten it however much it needs to be. Believe me though, I really did my best, and at least you have a draft to tinker with, right?
Oh, and while I was previously throwing out the suggestion that Braniac might have the issue of doing everything he does only because he was corrupted by Zod in the first place, I remembered that, while he was acting on his behalf initially, he later started acting completely independently, which might solve that potential snag with his inclusion. So unless anything else has seen it and believes he only committed those later actions because of his initial corruption, don't worry about keeping him.
If he/she knows how to trim it down without leaving out anything important, or at least while keeping all the most important points in tact, then of course, that's why I invited anyone who's interested to help me out. I can still shorten it a little myself, but it probably won't be enough.
Edited by Devoted2Nintendo on Sep 30th 2018 at 10:50:42 AM
Yeah...What Mir had said. Even if your candidate got voted down. At least there is something fun to EP some candidates who sometimes ended up getting downvoted or at least you could try to enjoy the work. And yeah, tbh, I got a lot of candidates that got voted down in the past like Lucius, Charlotte, Commander Zoath (Even though I truly disagree with Scraggle about his agency issues) or my recently thumbed down candidate, Lee Chuck. But I actually had a bit of fun enjoying to EP them and at least I enjoy some of the respective works they came from.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
On Lance.
Had a stupid question regarding how we deal with (repeat) cliffhanger villains for an upcoming proposal (hasn't been two weeks yet) but since I think the question was aleady answered in the past I think we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Lance unless he gets revisited later on Freedom Fighters: The Ray but that's unlikely.
Yeah, I agree there's no shame in proposing any villain as long as they're more heinous than the mother who called her daughter "blondie". I had more fun writing the Ep of the Joker who was downvoted than let say Ra Devil who's very boring.
While my discussion on agate lightvale was an embarrassment at best, I still had fun writing Her EP thanks to her being..she had a reputation in the fandom for being the charachter the fan base Loves to hate and to me was essentially Evil Is Petty incarnate. So I could concur with the others. I'm REALLY tempted to say yes to Earth X lance do to how much of a Hate Sink he was but sadly he dosent do much on screen. Hopefully he'll do more in freedom fighters.
Edited by Kylotrope on Sep 30th 2018 at 7:23:38 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around hereNo to Lance and at Men, as the one who suggested we stop using potholes like The Sociopath, I think there's been a bit of a miscommunication here. The words themselves I have no problem with and as I've said I don't think 100% of them will always have that particular psychological disorder, it's just the trope I suggested was redundant. If the word sociopath, psychopath, narcissist, etc. fits in naturally, then I don't think there's anything wrong with putting it in, just don't Wiki Word it. Just wanted to clear that up.
Alright here's what 43110 got. Credit to him. I think its good for a three episode villain like this
- Toyman, real name Winslow Scott, debuting in seaon 8, is a brilliant, deranged assassin who elaborately sets up bombs placed in unsuspecting locations. Putting one on top of the Daily Planet, the Toyman threatens to destroy half of Metropolis with it. To get revenge against Oliver Queen for framing him for Lex Luthor's murder, the Toyman captures a dozen civilians, strapping one to a bomb and placing them in a factory, intending to destroy it and kill them all. Later planting bombs at a shareholder's meeting Oliver is making a speech at to make him confess to killing Lex, the Toyman reveals he plans to blow up the gala whether or not Oliver caves to his demands. Later creating a fake company to take control of Metropolis' water supply, the Toyman intends to leave millions without water unless they give into his demands.
Honestly, I think sadistic works better for Flamingo anyway; the psychotic can probably be inferred from Psycho for Hire.
Please add Toyman to the Drafts.
The second Elder Evil post...Kyuss, the Worm that Walks.
Who is Kyuss?
Once a powerful necromancer of an evil society that longed for divinity, Kyuss was so evil that he was kicked out of his own decadent society, and gathered a great many followers, conducting barbaric and monstrous acts....learning of a ritual for divinity, Kyuss dispatched his priests to massacre all his followers, and then murdered the murderers, harnessing the energy with a black obelisk to transform, gaining and losing divinity all at once to become a monstrous being, not quite mortal and not quite divine: a 30 foot tall monstrosity comprised of wriggling worms wrapped in a cloak made from the flayed skins of his followers. Kyuss was sealed away, but created a mass of monsters, horrific worms to stalk the lands and murder for the glory of Kyuss, always working toward freedom.
Now, Kyuss's creations work to free him, causing mass amounts of bloodshed and horror, with Edwin as Kyuss's dragon. Kyuss is pretty horrible to his followers, robbing them of humanity and turning them into creatures composed of maggots and worms like he is. Also, under Kyuss's direction? Edwin swipes the sphere of annihilation, with Kyuss unleashed at the adventure's end. Kyuss intends on annihilating all of reality to obtain his freedom with the sphere, emerging to begin the rampage and start destroying everything it can. The adventure only ends when Edwin is defeated and Kyuss itself is destroyed by the adventurers.
Mitigating Qualities?
None. Kyuss was evil before his change, and evil after. His ritual was botched, but the only problem was he didn't become a full god like he wanted. Kyuss has done some far reaching damage and is complicit and active in a plan to destroy all reality. Even without that, Kyuss intends on causing death and destruction on such an enormous scale, the gods want to keep him locked away safely.
Conclusion?
I'd give the Worm that Walks a solid yes.
I'll give a yes to Kyuss, though now I'm wondering: Just how common IS being an Omnicidal Maniac in the franchise? Though I guess the fact there are several different settings helps a bit.
Yes, credit to him indeed, it looks great! If it's okay though, I have three small suggestions; I'd like it to leave in the part about him placing another of his bombs in the Luthor Corp meeting room that kills off its entire Board of Directors since that's definitely among his biggest credits, especially since it's ultimately the only case where he actually succeeds at killing a bunch people. Additionally, while Metropolis is a pretty big city, implying that holding back the water supply would leave millions without it might be exaggerating a little. The word "thousands" might sound more accurate. With regards to the first point, maybe it could read something like this; "he puts one in a Luthor Corp meeting room, killing the entire Board of Directors, and another on top of the Daily Planet that threatens to destroy half of Metropolis". Finally, please add the word "over" to the part about him capturing innocent civilians so that it reads "he captures over a dozen civilians", since including the one he strapped a bomb to, there's 14 of them at the very least. That should keep it all within an acceptable length, while covering all the most important points even more accurately. I hope you like these suggestions.
He does make an appearance in the following comic as well. Unfortunately though, I haven't read it myself, so I can't accurately say if he does anything that's worth adding to his resume there. I'm pretty much positive that he doesn't display any mitigating qualities that would disqualify him though.
![]()
![]()
Fair point, but I'd still like to keep it since I think it still stands alongside the other crimes well enough, and I don't think it would hurt the entry in any way.
Edited by Devoted2Nintendo on Sep 30th 2018 at 12:02:32 PM
Devoted: Feel free to make those changes at the Drafts page. I'm not gonna submit it this week, but next week instead, if that's okay. I've put the whole tree at the Drafts page, because while the length for all is fine, they need SEVERE de-potholing.
BTW, I don't know if it was in the effortpost, but it seems Toyman also appears in the season 11 comic.
Alright, he seems to plant bombs in every scene he's in and I don't feel like listing every single one. That being said I'm fine with millions being changed to thousands and over a dozen is fine. As for why I took out the board one in particular, it sounded like the smallest scope crime and what matters isn't what succeeds but what's attempted. We're already kinda pushing it for a villain who appears so little in terms of length.
Edit: Yes to Kyuss, nice simple keep.
![]()
![]()
Meh, I don't really see the necessity, it's clearly not a unique crime for him and just seems to add to the entry for the sake of it at this point.
Edited by 43110 on Sep 30th 2018 at 11:55:00 AM
Devoted: May not hurt to read it, just to be safe there's no Ass Pull of a redeeming quality (it's happened before; dude from Toriko, I'm looking at you).
I can try, but unlike the series, I don't know where I can find the comic to read his full appearance. However, going by what's provided about his appearance on his Smallville wiki page, I'm 100 % positive there is no sudden redeeming or mitigating quality. They don't always provide every single, minor detail, but there's no way they'd leave out something like that. If you like, give it a quick visit to see what I mean. Oh, and remember, I can't edit, so someone will have to make apply proposed suggestions for me.
![]()
Different shades then, I guess. I'm just giving my opinion as the one who's actually seen it and based on the impression it left on me.
Edited by Devoted2Nintendo on Sep 30th 2018 at 12:05:16 PM
I have a question about a candidate I've been planning on bringing up for a while. The film said candidate is from presents the candidate as an Anti-Hero (he's the main protagonist), but the film is so terrible it completely misses the point of an Anti-Hero and the character just winds up as a mass-murdering sociopath with no redeeming qualities. Essentially he's a hitman trying to escape a crime lord who's out to kill him for killing innocents, but kills even more innocents in the process as the film goes on.
Does the creator's intent count in this case? Or should I EP him?
Edited by MenInGreyToBlak on Sep 30th 2018 at 6:11:27 PM
Alright, one more EP today...gonna kick off a bevy I have prepped for October, too...
What's the work?
Robert McCammon's Blue World is about a priest in LA. Father John Lancaster is a handsome young priest devoted to his faith and religion until one day, a woman arrives in his confessional, who's a pornographic actress named Debra Rocks, who is grieving a friend of hers who was murdered. John becomes obsessed with her, realizing he's fallen for her and that she may be in danger. When he meets her outside of the confessional, he gives himself the name John Lucky, while trying to protect her...as well as staying true to himself and his vows of celibacy. The murder of her friend? Well, read on....and eet Travis the cowboy.
Who is Travis?
A psychopath who murders women he becomes obsessed with. Travis saw a pornographic video called Super Slick where he became completely obsessed with the three lead actresses and resolved to murder them to make them his entirely. The first target was one named Cherie Dane, who he hunted down, tied up in her apartment, terrorized and eventually drowned her in her bathtub. The second, Easee Breeze, real name Janey? Working in a seedy sex club between films. Travis buys her services and promptly shoots her in the head...before proceeding to massacre a number of others in the club and escaping, leaving only Debra.
Now, John manages to, unknowingly at first, protect Debra while concealing the fact he's a priest from her, lying and claiming he has a girlfriend he's faithful to. When John realizes the killings may actually be related? He tries to investigate more. At one point, Travis attempts to track down Debra (real name Debbie Stoner) and locates a guy she had a one night stand. Travis promptly stabs him in the throat to take care of loose ends, before sauntering off. John hires a private detective to keep an eye on Debbie to make sure she's safe, but Travis keys in, captures the detective and proceeds to torture him hideously, shooting him in vulnerable spots without being fatal to get information, and executing him when he has what he needs. When the detective lets slip that John is a priest, Travis hunts him down and attempts to execute him as well, but misses his mark by just a bit, badly wounding John but not killing him, before he attacks Debra, intending on drowning her in the bathtub as well.
John manages to arrive in time and struggles with Travis, ending by throwing him out the apartment window to his death. In the novella's end, John helps Debbie leave back to her hometown in Louisiana as the two say their goodbyes, affirming one another as soulmates, even as they recognize they can't be together, even if Debbie can't resist giving him a passionate kiss farewell. John ends up becoming a patron saint for women in trouble, ending with a crying girl arriving in church for 'Father Lucky', as John promises to hear her story and resolves to help her.
Heinous standard?
I think Travis just makes it here. He's got a decent body count with some nasty torture and slowly drowning two of his victims is bad. He kills multiple people in the first nightclub as well, guard and bystander alike, and he's such a slimy creep that he comes off as eminently despicable.
Mitigating Qualities?
Travis is clearly out of his fucking mind, but not to a level I'd consider debilitating. He gets precious little by way of backstory, only that he was a trick shot in the rodeo, who has serious issues with women and tends to hunt down the ones he becomes obsessed with. To that end, Travis will murder and torture anyone in his way, or even if they're only a minor impediment. He's a total creep who proclaims the girls 'love' him, and murders them to make them his forever. o, no, nothing mitigating here.
Conclusion?
I'd give Travis a keep.

Yeah guys dont feel too bad tgat they dont qualify. In another work they'd keep pretty essily just not Buffyverse and arrowverse respectively.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."