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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#130051: Sep 17th 2018 at 6:21:29 AM

[up][up] From what I remember it's loyal but I don't know how loyal as it's been a while since I read the comic.

[down] Done.

Edited by Bullman on Sep 17th 2018 at 6:51:19 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#130052: Sep 17th 2018 at 6:34:10 AM

Seems like I'm outvoted on Dee. Please add to the Drafts.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#130054: Sep 17th 2018 at 7:14:14 AM

RE: Bellatrix...she does not have a good relaitonship with her sister. At all. Bellatrix in her one interaction with Narcissa, is callously dismissive of her grief boasting that Narcissa should be proud to offer her only son to die in Voldemort's service and then mocks her when Narcissa gets mad enough to point a wand at her.

IF Voldemort so much as wished it, Bella would kill Narcissa and then never think twice about it.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#130055: Sep 17th 2018 at 7:28:25 AM

Yes to Williams and sure for Mabuse on this end too.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#130056: Sep 17th 2018 at 7:46:58 AM

[tup]Mabuse

I was wondering why he wanst listed.

[tup]General Williams

Watch me destroying my country
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#130057: Sep 17th 2018 at 8:51:57 AM

  • The Carmilla Movie: Elle Sheridan was a noble woman who, discovering her lover Carmilla was a vampire, betrayed Carmilla to her mother before her death. Unable to cross into the afterlife with the other souls of the sacrifice victims, Elle grew to resent Carmilla and Laura's life together. Elle began to torment Laura with nightmares, luring her, Carmilla, and her friends to her mansion. Gathering the souls, Elle manipulated them into preparing a ritual that would help them move on to the afterlife, with Carmilla willingly giving up her human life. Unbeknownst to them, Elle plans on stealing Carmilla's life for her own, and condemning the rest of the spirits back into the hell dimension forever. Despite her past, it's pointed out she wasn't the only sacrifice and the others never turned evil, with Elle admitting to her jealous and selfish motives, with disdain and indifference to everyone else. Elle picks off Carmilla, Laura and their friends, trapping them in their nightmarish hell; Carmilla's in particular reliving Elle's betrayal over and over again. When Laura rescues her friends and the other ghosts to prepare the ritual, Elle makes one final attempt to disrupt them, holding a knife to Carmilla's throat. Originally seen as a tragic figure of Carmilla's past and even a benevolent force in the first season, Elle ended up becoming a dark far cry of her previous self.
  • Heaven and Hell:
    • The Ambition of Hell: Scott Niles is an obese, disgusting human trafficker who mentors young Alice in the ways of power and pain. Working in the slave trade for years, Niles sentences countless women to horrific lives of rape and torture, regularly "testing" the women out himself beforehand, and keeps several women in his makeshift dungeon to use and abuse at his leisure. Dealing in victims as young as four years old, Niles's cruelty and viciousness extend beyond torture, as he shoots a slave in the head for fun, cracking an awful pun about her ethnicity, and beats a child slave to death with a towel rack when learning that he is severely sick. Though terrified of Ashton Sharpe's psychotic savagery, Niles nevertheless sells him women and children, knowing they will be tortured to death. In his final appearance, Niles attempts to rape Alice in a drunken lust, and, though halting his advances when Alice fights back, Niles never once apologizes or shows remorse for the act, having earlier stated that he wouldn't care one bit if Alice lost their "precious virginity" while dealing in his business. Though lacking the supernatural resources of other villains, Niles is no less vile.
    • The Radiance of Heaven: Azazel, Lord of Hell and one of the most powerful Tulpas alive, is a ruthless, brilliant schemer hell-bent on seeing Hell rise supreme in the final cycle. Introducing himself to Tango and Mint by subjecting an innocent couple to a horrible death, Azazel steadily unveils his machinations: having sacrificed billions to the twisted, murderous pleasures of his brother Naberius, Azazel manipulates Tango so he may place Naberius in the heaven-controlled city of Solomon, extinguishing trillions of lives, angel soldier and civilian alike. Azazel also cultivates sects loyal to Hell so he may lead them to their deaths, taking the strongest and most rebellious and subjecting them to agonizing transformations to serve as demonic servants. Azazel further manipulates his adopted son Erebos, a survivor of a Greek city Azazel handed to Naberius, to strengthen Azazel's own position in Hell, planning to wipe out Heaven and lead the demons to exterminate all human life with only a few human survivors twisted into grotesque parodies of life, with no care of the cost to build his diabolical paradise.
  • The Kindness of Devils: Hardestadt Delac and Erin Hasegawa have faced many foes, both supernatural and human. These are the worst:
    • None Too Holy: The Pijavica, actually the mother of the mute orphan Aleksandar, is the entity whose murder of Father Collins and attempt to bring Aleksandar back into her clutches sets up the plot. The Pijavica murders one of the nuns of the Maryland orphanage Aleksandar lives in to pose as her, slaughtering another when she reveals her true identity and attempting to massacre all of the other children and nuns there to get at her prey. The vilest revelation concerning Aleksandar's "Majika" was her constant incestuous attentions on Aleksandar in life—dooming her husband to hang when she was exposed and executed—seeking to rape Aleksandar one more time before murdering him as well.
    • Rich Jacobs, the Big Bad of Girls on Film and the illegitimate son of Wallace Malcolm Hargrove, is a young vampire who figures that having the wealth and resources of his father means he can excuse being as vile as he can possibly be. Operating with no regard of the standards of his own kind, Jacobs sets up a snuff porn ring where hundreds of women are kidnapped by the criminals he's turned for the purpose of raping, torturing, and murdering them within the confines of one of his father's prisons, selling the films on the dark web for a profit and disposing of the bodies by feeding them to starved ghouls. Kicking off the plot by kidnapping a woman named Emma West, Jacobs turns her into a vampire and uses her for his "special" films by having her tortured and maimed by his men for countless days on end, a fate he's already bestowed on several other unlucky women. When the supernatural investigator Hardestadt Delac invades his operation, Jacobs captures him and forces him to endure physical and psychological torture for days on end for the glee of breaking him, while intending to finish him by letting the blood-starved vampire women tear him to shreds before Jacobs personally finishes him. When resurrected by Nyarlathotep in Nights In Lonesome Arkham, Jacobs sells out all humanity to destruction and kills thousands in service to his new master. Reviled by even his own kind, Jacobs is little else than a swaggering, entitled brat and a blood-hungry sadist underneath his weak facade of charisma and control.
    • Girls on Film: The aforementioned Wallace Malcolm Hargrove is the benefactor and father of Rich Jacobs and his horrific snuff porn films. Having taken Jacobs as his son after his own numerous sexual assaults and rapes led to the boy being born, Hargrove eventually saved the boy from a lethal sickness by turning him into a vampire. When an adult Jacobs offered his father the chance to participate in snuff films, Hargrove leapt at the chance, not only because he thought Jacobs would turn him into a vampire as well, but also simply because he enjoyed the thought of sending countless women to be brutally raped and tortured to death on films which he could later watch. In his final moments, Hargrove proclaims he feels no regret for having handed dozens of women at a time over to Jacobs, and truthfully doesn't care about his son except as a an object for his "legacy" and a means to immortality.
    • Nights In Lonesome Arkham: Nyarlathotep himself is an all-too human monster distinguished from the other Outer Gods by his sadism and ambition. Once the nameless emissary of the Outer Gods who went from world to world to drive entire civilzations to madness before offering them up to be devoured by Azathoth, Nyarlathotep was given hope of a more meaningful existence by the angel Aleviel—before instantly reneging on that once she was cast down and vowing to annihilate the world she desired to protect out of spite. During his time on Earth, Nyarlathotep drives the entire city of Thinis to murderous, chaotic insanity, driving the populace to slaughter the city's children and restoring the sanity of the surviving populace their solely to bask in their suffering and horror; slaughters hundreds of thousands across the world, some merely as distractions; rises up the Great Old One Ithaqua in an effort to doom the planet to its deathly cold; keeps the populace of entire towns frozen in eternal agony as trophies of his previous conquests; and, at the end, reveals his intent to devour the other Outer Gods and come astride the rest of creation, devouring all in his way and keeping whatever is left to torment forevermore. With whatever decency Aleviel managed to awaken in him thoroughly trampled in the present day, Nyarlathotep is, at the end, nothing more than a wicked, spiteful, and endlessly sadistic entity thoroughly worthy of the moniker of the "Crawling Chaos".
    • Under The Cold Moon:
      • Siegfried Gunmarsohn is a brutal, red-furred werewolf who terrorized Soissons, Gévaudan, Chalons, and countless other areas with a slew of victims—especially children—to his name. Concerned only with his own notion of pure-blooded werewolves and seeking to put all humanity under his claw, Siegfried murdered his own mother, brother, and sister in succession over a course of centuries before seemingly meeting his end at the hands of Hardestadt Delac. Siegfried gave himself over to Ithaqua at the prospect of vengeance, resurfacing decades later as the leader of a town called Pine Creek, using his position to select dozens of innocent people from the village as fodder for his hunts and as sacrifices to Ithaqua, and handing over more of them for vivisection and experimentation at the hands of Sieglinde Nomura. Uncaring even to the deaths of his own children—which he's bred solely as Cannon Fodder for centuries—Siegfried plans to raise up Ithaqua and freeze over the entire world, ruling over the remnants of humanity to cull and hunt them as his own leisure forever.
      • The aforementioned Sieglinde Nomura is Siegfried's daughter and a Mad Scientist who takes pleasure in experimenting on innocent people. After Siegfried was defeated by Hardestadt Delac several years in the past, Nomura helped nurse him back to health, and later assisted him in his schemes to eradicate humanity. Using a serum she invented, Nomura experimented on hundreds of thousands of humans and werewolves alike in hopes of creating a horde of werewolves loyal to only Siegfried, or destroying their minds so they'll be easier to control. Those who perished were merely disposed of or eaten, and records of how long they lasted were recorded in various notebooks. Whenever Nomura isn't trying to perfect her serum, she's vivisecting innocent humans and slowly eating parts of their body alongside her father—sometimes while they're still alive—or torturing humans she paralyzed just for the thrill of it. After Hardestadt and Erin Hasegawa are captured and Nomura finds out Erin escaped, Nomura willingly allows her to try and run away, all so she can take pleasure in hunting her down like a predator.
  • Legatum:
    • Smirvlak's Stone: Lorko Maeliss is the dreaded leader of the Yellow Fang, a gnoll tribe which pillage, rape, and slaughter their way throughout the country of Glorsdale under his cruel direction. With a fondness for rape and torture, Lorko furiously pursues the Corveel brothers and their ally Stilyk after they rob him of a powerful magical stone, massacring the Corveel brothers' village and cutting a wide trail of mayhem and murder across the countryside with countless creatures slaughtered by his gnolls. Possessed of a propensity to murder his own minions for any reason he can think of, Lorko tosses unending waves of them to their own deaths, personally butchers many of them for simply contending his authority, and enslaved his adviser after having massacred her family and "tamed" her by letting the other female gnolls rape her into terrified submission. In the end, after using what remains of his own band as suicide bombers to create a distraction wide enough for him to corner and rape Nickolas Corveel, Lorko reveals his designs to use the stolen stone to conquer the entire planet and annihilate millions, fancying himself the god of a new age where all who oppose him are crushed.
    • Help Not Wanted: Ogrell Syn'Gorrsh, seemingly a simple-minded ogre in search of his missing daughter, harbors a much, much darker secret. Ogrell is in fact a Serial Killer, having already long ago butchered and ate his own daughter after her whining annoyed him to the point of violence, following up with his wife and then countless innocents afterwards he lured in or kidnapped to brutally murder and eat. Not satisfied with simply killing and eating his victims, Ogrell psychologically and physically tortures them for weeks on end, with a priest Ogrell's left a skinned, maimed mess and a goblin Ogrell reduced to a feral monster only a few of his endless menagerie of victims. When the goblin contractors he lured in try and stop him, Ogrell beats a child to death in front of one of them to lure him out and later tries to simply murder them all himself after his first attempt to break them fails, laughing away their morals and simply telling them they're all animals at heart like him.

Edited by ACW on Sep 18th 2018 at 6:35:39 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#130058: Sep 17th 2018 at 9:08:00 AM

BTW, I'll HOPEFULLY have my Contra effortposts this week. Plus I know Scraggle's got the Lich.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#130059: Sep 17th 2018 at 9:14:51 AM

Sorry for the long wait considered right now I'm trying to skimming Psyren for upcoming E Ps along with Lighty and having a college as usual. Anyways, here's Ryoga's writeup. Sorry if this is way too long:

Damned (By Tetsuya Saruwatari): Ryoga is Jin's long lost friend who turned out to be someone worse. After Jin tries to save Ryoga from his second execution, the latter responded by stopping Jin's heart. After he willfully sold himself to Tokyo Company and become one of the top employees, Ryoga uses the slaves that the Tokyo Company kidnapped for his own twisted immortality experiment by stitching their dead bodies into a huge giant and turn their neurons so that they could ended up becoming a killing machine while keeping their consciousness alive. Ryoga then proceeds to cruelly told Jin that the friendship he formed in the past was fake and Jin was nothing but his spare parts. After Jin spares Ryoga, he then taunts Jin that he will continue his experiments. Before the final confrontation, Ryoga threatens the secretary to give him the whereabouts of the CEO and then blows his head after saying that the CEO has interested in Jin and kills anyone who tries to stop him from meeting the CEO. Although having numerous redeeming qualities in the past, Ryoga is revealed as nothing but a hyper-human sociopath who tries to rule Tokyo as a god.

@ACW I'll send it to the drafts and you can try to trim and play with my write-up as you wish considered that you also read the manga buddy! tongue Also, for myself, I think it's at best to leave Ryoga's name spoiled because the revelation of Ryoga is evil doesn't hit until the second half of the chapter...At least in my opinion. And like I said in P Ms... @Lightysnake Thanks for recommending me this manga. I appreciate it buddy cool[tup][tup][tup]

EDIT: It's Ryoga. Not Jin. My bad [lol]

Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Sep 17th 2018 at 11:32:42 PM

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#130060: Sep 17th 2018 at 1:12:24 PM

Hope nobody minds, but I made a slight addition to Dee's entry (original comic one) to specify where exactly his actions took place.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#130061: Sep 17th 2018 at 2:13:17 PM

[tup] to Dr. Manbuse and General Williams.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#130063: Sep 17th 2018 at 3:23:47 PM

So, then... two weeks since Adventure Time's finale. Let's go over who doesn't count, first.

Firstly, Gumbald. No, he doesn't keep. He turns his family into simplistic mutants and he wages war on the Candy Kingdom. He still doesn't even remotely approach the standard and he's essentially laughed off as a joke at the end.

The series' Greater-Scope Villain, GOLB, if we connect all the dots, is vile... it's the god of chaos, with implications that it's been behind the Catalyst Comet, the nuke that was used in the Mushroom War, the Lich himself... except GOLB himself isn't even sentient. It shows up as a Diabolus ex Machina trying to destroy Ooo in the second half of the finale and doesn't do anything, say anything, show any kind of explicit motive or personality, and generally just kind of acts like AT's incarnation of Azathoth. Similarly? Absolutely none of the creatures it mutates are shown to have any semblance of sentience whatsoever.

...except for one. Ladies and gentlemen? Our conclusive EP on the Lich. First? Let's go over the Nile-long list of things he's done...

Who is the Lich? What has he done?

The dark being known only as the Lich is an ancient evil. The Lich has been active for centuries, since the Mushroom War... or maybe even longer, since the Lich is implied to be a previous embodiment of the Catalyst Comet... or maybe even longer, as the Lich demonstrates a vision of the time "before there was anything... before there was nothing... there were monsters." The last scholar of GOLB and the most dangerous evil on Ooo, whatever the Lich is? He's pure evil, intelligent, ruthless, sadistic, and concerned only with one thing; the destruction of all life.

The Lich's first chronological appearance was when he came into conflict with Finn's hero idol, Billy, who struck him down as he was conducting a ritual to annihilate all life on Ooo and broke off one of his horns, trapping him in the resin of an amber tree. In the first part of the second season finale? The Lich... breaks out, using his compelling voice to have a snail crack the amber, immediately making for his horrifying well of power to regain his energy and kickstart the apocalypse all over again. As PB says? "If you fail, he'll kill everyone." Finn and Jake track down the Lich, trying to stop him with Billy's gauntlet before the Lich breaks it. The Lich tries to use his powers to convince Finn to jump into the well and die... but Finn overpowers it, using a sweater PB gave him to rip out the top half of the Lich's skull.

All seem good? No. The Lich has a penchant for body-surfing and possession whenever he's been beaten, and the next part, "Mortal Recoil," has him possess PB... resulting in her agonizing mutation into a monster under his control, fattening her up on radioactive liquids and eventually growing to a point where he lays waste to the Candy Kingdom. Ice King manages to free and shatter her, seemingly stopping the Lich again... until that same snail that released it? The Lich travels into it instead, stalking Finn and Jake in the background for two more seasons before it finally travels to a new host.

The Lich, in the end of season 4 and the two-part opener of season 5? Goes for Billy, ambushing and murdering him before skinning him and wearing his body as a suit, manipulating Finn and Jake into giving him the Enchiridion, a powerful book capable of opening a portal to the Time Room in the center of the multiverse. Finn manages to see through his disguise just before he gives him the book at PB's warning, shattering it... which was exactly to the Lich's plan, creating a portal to the Time Room. "Thanks, Finn. I couldn't have done it without you." Finn and Jake follow the Lich and see him consult with the nigh-omnipotent genie that exists within it, Prismo, wishing for the extinction of all life in the multiverse. Finn tries to undo that by wishing the Lich never existed, whisking him to an alternate dimension called the Farmworld where the Mushroom Bomb never exploded and the Lich never came into being. Except... the bomb does end up going off after Farmworld!Finn turns into his version of the Ice King. And Farmworld!Jake becomes another Lich.

Thankfully, the primary Jake manages to alter the primary Lich's wish, resulting in the Lich being trapped in a supposed standstill in Prismo's Time Room, still in Billy's dead body with nothing to kill. Turns out... the Lich is just biding his time. In the season six opener? Prismo offers to sacrifice his existence as a dream master to let Finn and Jake go to the Citadel where Finn's father is located, but the Lich suddenly moves and hijacks that scheme, waking up Prismo's physical body and erasing the dream Prismo from existence. Then, in an especially dick move? The Lich spitefully uses his toxic breath to horrifically kill Prismo's physical body in front of Finn and Jake, reducing him to ashes.

The Lich is taken to the Citadel where he's imprisoned among a gallery of cosmic criminals, but easily breaks out with his noxious breath. The Lich mind-rapes Finn and Jake into submission before explaining his master plan here, intending to free the worst of the criminals of the Citadel and use them as his army, traveling to a billion worlds and snuffing them out alongside all life on them, one after another, until all is silent. Finn manages to use some of the spilled blood of one of the felled guardians of the Citadel and weakly splashes the Lich with it... which ends up mutating the Lich. The Lich? Is helpless as he suddenly starts to grow flesh from his skeletal body... until he's become a harmless baby, someone else entirely, that Finn and Jake leave to be raised as "Sweet P."

There remains the primary Lich for the rest of the series, permanently turned into Sweet P who's the exact opposite of the Lich in every way and has none of his memories (well, except the Lich still exists in there somewhere, as seen when Sweet P accidentally lets him take control and has him Mind Rape a pair of jackasses threatening him). Except remember when I said Farmworld!Jake became another Lich? Yeah. In season 8's "Crossover," Farmworld!Lich, with the exact personality of the old one, starts manipulating Farmworld!Jake into using the Enchiridion to another portal to the multiverse, and tries to slaughter him once he's outlived his use. "Everywhere, you will die. You. Your family. Over and over. Mountains of broken bodies, beneath the wheel." Finn and Jake Prime stop him, vaporizing him with a powerful weapon, but the Lich's hand falls into Ooo...

In his final appearance toward the end of the series, "Whispers?" The Lich's hand sinks to his lowest deed yet, horrifically mind-raping and mentally torturing the young Sweet P for nights on end to draw out the other Lich in him, to reign as twin kings of terror. The confrontation takes Finn and the Lich back to the well of power, where Sweet P comes in as the Lich tries to trip Finn into the well of power... and Sweet P turns on Farmworld!Lich, striking him down and slaying him for good.

That's all, folks!

Any mitigating factors?

Hmm. No issues about the standard — he annihilates it — or him being played seriously (he's the Knight of Cerebus for a reason; the Lich is not played, not once, for any sort of comedy whatsoever) but let's talk about who or what the Lich is.

Long story short? We... kind of don't know. We get a lot of conflicting information about his backstory. Prismo states the Lich's primary function is to cause mass death. Farmworld!Lich was shown to be the result of that world's version of Jake (a normal dog) being mutated by the Mushroom Bomb, but simultaneously, we get information that the Lich may have existed since the time of the extinction of the dinosaurs, as an incarnation of the Catalyst Comet... or even before time itself. The key thing that seems to tie everything together, though? "I am the last scholar of GOLB."

So, remember when I said GOLB was essentially all but explicitly stated to be the reason behind the Mushroom War? GOLB's breath, a horrific, noxious green cloud that horribly mutates whatever is touches, is essentially stated to be the stuff that came out of the Mushroom Bomb, and that the Lich was someone who was mutated into it as one of GOLB's servants, the last active one in the present day. So... would it be easy to say that the Lich really had no choice in becoming what he was, then?

Well... there's some issues there. Mainly because the Lich is literally the only sentient follower of GOLB whatsoever. All the rest, even GOLB itself? Are unintelligent, mindless monsters with seemingly no free will or even mind whatsoever. The Lich, on the other hand? He's unrelenting, a sadist who clearly enjoys torturing and mind-raping other people and killing all he can, a genius manipulator who fully knows how to convincingly pose and act as a good guy when he's taken over Billy's body, who seems fully aware of all his monstrosity and chooses to embrace what he is and what he's doing. As the Lich says it himself, in his final appearance? "While the mortal world doubts and questions? I know exactly what I am."

There's a lot of choppy bits, I admit. A lot that's not explained, a lot that's still incredibly vague as to the real nature of the Lich and why he so singlemindedly pursues the extinction of all life (beyond his own enjoyment... the Lich is laughing his ass off when he finally wishes for the extinction of all life and that's kind of telling to me). Maybe we'll get some conclusive answers in ancillary material. But for now? That's the piecemeal stuff we've gotten through years of lore.

Conclusion?

I can see a lot of discussion here. I'm in favor of keeping, but what say we all?

Thoughts?

Edited by Scraggle on Sep 17th 2018 at 6:22:23 AM

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#130064: Sep 17th 2018 at 3:29:25 PM

[tup] to keeping the Lich and the vampire write up is coming in a few hours.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#130067: Sep 17th 2018 at 3:33:19 PM

[tup]The Lich.

I kinda think his conversation in citadel is the ultimate proof he chooses to be like this and uh there's enough ambiguity with AT as awhole for me to say that just saying he's Made of Evil and doesnt have a choice is dubious.

Also hey I get to vote on a charcater I literally grew up and is one of my all time favourite CM's

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#130069: Sep 17th 2018 at 3:35:04 PM

Yes to keeping the Lich.

Knack Since: Mar, 2018
#130070: Sep 17th 2018 at 3:36:40 PM

Yes to the Lich. Agency doesn't seem to be a concern here.

Edited by Knack on Sep 17th 2018 at 3:36:04 AM

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#130072: Sep 17th 2018 at 3:38:08 PM

i'll give a yea on keeping lich.

Also, thoughts on Orgalorg @Scraggle?

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#130073: Sep 17th 2018 at 3:42:36 PM

I dont think orgalorg' is played seriosuly or is heious enough for his tier tbh considering he's a Eldtrich Abomination, he could be much worse.

Edited by miraculous on Sep 17th 2018 at 3:46:06 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#130074: Sep 17th 2018 at 3:49:22 PM

I don't know about the Lich. Is showing sadism and being intelligent really enough to say they can choose to be evil? Aku shows sadism, clearly understands what he is doing is evil, and very much has a personality, but he was still deemed to lack agency.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#130075: Sep 17th 2018 at 3:49:56 PM

I don't think Orgalorg counts. Same issue I've got with Warren Ampersand... I don't really think he's treated with the necessary weight or threat to really stand out. Plus, y'know, at his world-destroyer tier? Matching up to the Lich is a very legitimate worry and I don't think he makes it.

[up] We at least see numerous instances of Aku's evil nature genuinely compelling him to do evil regardless of its utility, over and over, because that's what he is. Nothing of the ilk of, say, the Lich proudly and cognizantly affirming his own identity as the last servant of GOLB.

Edited by Scraggle on Sep 17th 2018 at 4:50:03 AM


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