During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Here's my candidate for the Ar Tonelico series in the second game of series, it's Dr. Laude.
Who is he and what does he do?
Dr. Laude is one of the high ranks of the Grand Bell, a government that are in favor against the Goddess. Being in one of the people in charge, he's guilty of all the crimes the Grand Bell has done, from kidnapping infected girls including children and throwing them into prison to be experimented or to rot, executing anyone who goes against them and causing a conflict that effects everyone in their land. Laude is one of the most guilty of these crimes because Laude himself is the one who are in charge of the experiments which ends with the victim being traumatized severely or being killed. It's reveal the Grand Bell is doing all these horrible things in order to try taking control of the issues their facing since the land they live in, a tower, is falling apart and the infection can cause issues, which would give the Grand Bell a justifiable reason, Laude himself has his own ambition.
Laude is actually from another world, Tyria, who wants to get an item called the Heart of Gaia to bring back in his world for fame and power. To do that Laude worked with the government to get close to them so they can help him get the ancient artifact. When it's revealed to get the Heart of Gaia is to use one of the two Sacred Maidens as a vessel, Laude was more then willing to do it even if the world requires the Sacred Maidens to help save them. Laude first worked with the mysterious Jacqli to find where the Heart of Gaia is, and then left her after she decided to help the main party instead of selfishly getting the Heart of Gaia. When they were able to bring back one of the two Sacred Maidens from the heart, Laude decided to go to extremes to get it.
He kidnapped the mother of the two sacred maidens Reisha and try to force her to create another Heart of Gaia by threatening Luca. When the party comes to save Reisha, Laude manage to make one and tried to merge Luca with it to complete it. He exclaimed that he plans to leave the world to die once he gets the heart knowing that to get it would require to sacrifice one of the people necessary to save their world. This lead to the security of the Goddess of the world to come down and kill Laude, due to angering an ancient diety with his actions which would cause the land to start falling off more and more.
Heinousness:
The only villain in the game who has no redeeming qualities, he's a wicked and selfish old man who sacrificed innocent girls and would let the world die for himself.
Mitigating Factors:
The idea that Laude has standards compared to Jacqli/Mir's ruthlessness is easily crossed considering the extreme Laude goes himself much later in the game after that one moment.
His idea to save his world Tyria also doesn't count, because Laude only wants the fame he would get once he brings the Heart of Gaia, and as Jacqli shown they could've still gotten the heart without sacrificing one of the maidens. He also clearly shows no love for his world, since Tyria takes place in the next game and his daughter Mute has said Laude has always been a hot head due to not feeling like he gets the respect he deserves, even though it's clear that regular people like Laude are not exactly treated with disdain and are just seen as normal people. It doesn't excuse his willingness to let another world die just for his fame.
His daughter doesn't mitigate him either, since there was never really any sign of Laude loving his daughter. In fact Laude abandoned his daughter for a long time just so he can get the Heart of Gaia, clearly showing he cares more about himself then her.
Final Verdict:
Laude definitely counts as nothing excuses or justifies him trying to sacrifice another world and it's people for his own gain.
Edited by TheImmortalAngelNewton on Aug 27th 2018 at 12:43:15 PM
Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle- DC Showcase: Catwoman: Rough Cut is a diamond smuggler who has taken up Human Trafficking. Kidnapping a dozen women at a time, Rough Cut has them placed in crates and sold into slavery. When his gang abduct teenage Holly Robinson, her friend Catwoman pursues them. She finds them trying to kill a cat for the jewels on its collar, and ends up chasing them. Rough Cut makes a semi truck crash in the hopes it will kill his enemy, before offering her a 10% cut if she leaves him alone.
So, does anyone object to my changes to Junko's write-up, and if not can it be approved? I tried to propose a change before regarding the fact that she didn't personally lobotomize Chisa, but had Mukuro do it for her, but my post was lost in the shuffle, and I'm determined not to let that happen again. I agree with 43110 about adding a mention of her AI's actions; even if the AI isn't a CM herself, her creating it and what it did warrants mention (keep in mind that Alter Ego Junko also orchestrated both sides in Absolute Despair Girls).
Edited by rjd1922 on Aug 26th 2018 at 11:03:40 AM
Keet cleanupNew proposal...
the work? JLA Batman: The Stone King, a novel by the acclaimed comic writer Alan Grant. The plot is simple: an ancient temple is discovered under Gotham city, the find of the century, along with a mummified figure wearing a bull mask within. Unfortunately, the scientist who leads the research is soon taken over by a dark spirit...I give you the Stone King.
who is the Stone King?
A ruler from a neolithic society. These people selected their rulers from shamans who would be trained to commune with spirits and would be entrusted to care for their people...unfortunately, the Stone King, who was entrusted with the well being of his people? Was corrupted by his new power. He decided his people should worship him instead of the gods and began a series of nasty, despotic actions. He forced them to build him a pyramid, had innocents sacrificed to him and finally? He ordered they start sacrificing their children as a sign of their devotion. They finally brought him down and sacrificed him, leaving him buried in the temple...but his spirit survived.
When awoken, the Stone King possesses the scientist in charge of the research and murders several others, before killing more people and raising their corpses as zombies to kill even more, which gets the League's attention. Unfortunately, the Stone King is now so insanely strong, he's a match for the entire League, with Batman analyzing him...and the Stone King proceeds to Mind Rape most of the people he comes across with more potent fear than the Scarecrow's toxins, and completely wrecks all the League but Batman who realizes the Stone King plans to be a God again: by cleansing the world of the unworthy and feeding on their deaths. The problem is? He sees everyone as unworthy and plans to trigger a chain reaction deep within the world to trigger natural disasters to wipe out humanity. He triggers earthquakes, volcanoes, blackouts, causing tons of deaths through, and plans to go even further until the earth is blasted and maimed, with humanity exterminated. However, Batman? Manages to fight him at his own game, using a fear toxin to instill a fear of bats in him and confronts him as he harnesses the energies of the world. The Stone King? Loses control from the fear of Batman and can no longer harness the energies...resulting in them tearing him apart.
Mitigating Qualities?
He's the only villain in the novel except for a few other mentions, and the Scarecrow having a cameo. He easily sets it. Mass slaughter? Mind Rape? Attempted extinction of billions with a body count in the thousands to millions? Pass.
No, absolutely no mitigating qualities to him. He never speaks, but he has a clear character described and shown, and his backstory shows he was just a shaman who decided he should be a god, to the extent his people overthrew him.
Conclusion?
An easy, easy keeper.
Snyder and
the Stone King.
Have a new rewrite here, for a character I brought up but has a pretty long entry despite being a "small fryer". Mostly trimmed out unnecessary details and made sentences shorter.
- inFAMOUS: First Light: In this prequel DLC to inFAMOUS: Second Son, Shane is starts out as a small time drug lord and gang leader, when he meets Fetch Walker, putting on a helpful face, manipulating her into using her powers to help him win a gang war and kill rival gangsters under the pretext of saving her brother Brent. When Brent is rescued, Shane takes him hostage to force Fetch into working for him to cement his hold on Seattle's drug trade. When one of his employees, Jenny, tries to help Fetch find Brent, Shane kills Jenny in retaliation. He then tries to get the police in his pocket, forcing Fetch cause destruction and slaughter dozens of cops in order to blackmail the chief and lures Fetch into a makeshift gas chamber, because she's now a liability. Later he drugs Fetch, and tricks her into killing her brother before she is captured by the DUP. When captured himself and cornered after Fetch's rampage against him, Shane has remorse for his crimes, using his last words to taunt Fetch about her brother's death.
I also might do a rewrite for Sheriff Walker of Borrasca if no one minds. Find his current entry is a little on the big and detailed side.
Edited by Beast on Aug 26th 2018 at 11:45:04 AM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."Oh, well, instant DQ, thanks for bringing this to our attention.
Yea to the Stone King.
Edited by Scraggle on Aug 26th 2018 at 10:45:46 AM
(Dope Slap) Juuust lemme fix that.
- inFAMOUS: First Light: In this prequel DLC to inFAMOUS: Second Son, Shane is starts out as a small time drug lord and gang leader, when he meets Fetch Walker, putting on a helpful face, manipulating her into using her powers to help him win a gang war and kill rival gangsters under the pretext of saving her brother Brent. When Brent is rescued, Shane takes him hostage to force Fetch into working for him to cement his hold on Seattle's drug trade. When one of his employees, Jenny, tries to help Fetch find Brent, Shane kills Jenny in retaliation. He then tries to get the police in his pocket, forcing Fetch cause destruction and slaughter dozens of cops in order to blackmail the chief and lures Fetch into a makeshift gas chamber, because she's now a liability. Later he drugs Fetch, and tricks her into killing her brother before she is captured by the DUP. When captured himself and cornered after Fetch's rampage against him, Shane has no remorse for his crimes, using his last words to taunt Fetch about her brother's death.
And while I am at it.
- Borrasca: Sheriff Graham Walker seems like a caring family man and protective town sheriff at first, but later reveals himself to be a twisted and ruthless crime boss who runs a human trafficking empire. Walker moves his family to Drisking to escape scrutiny for pimping out teenage girls, and to get involved, and take part in, Drisking's conspiracy of mass murder, abduction, rape and impregnation of numerous women; notably having his own young daughter Whitney kidnapped to be made his Sex Slave and brood mare, raping her dozens of times. When his son Sam learns of the operation, Walker has him framed for the battery of his friend Kyle. When Whitney herself dies, Walker murders his wife to have a new daughter in hopes of making a replacement Sex Slave. Walker also usurps the Prescott control of the operation, withholding the towns benefits of the operation for himself. When Sam and his friend Kimber (who Walker also raped) confront Walker, he beats Sam and intends to mould Sam into his heir and make Kimber a new Sex Slave, before attempting to kill them, telling Sam he could always have another son to replace him.
I'd also try to spoiler tag Walker but since he's a Jefferson level of walking spoiler, I wouldn't know where to start.
Edited by Beast on Aug 26th 2018 at 12:04:26 PM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."Got a special one now, too...
What's the work?
Nightfall in Middle Earth is an epic rock concept album by Blind Guardian. And the concept album? Is the Silmarillion. The album opens with the War of Wrath, Morgoth realizing the fight is all but lost and telling Sauron to return to the fray and to remember he is his servant for all time. Morgoth bitterly recounts how it all came to this...
And who's our candidate? You can probably guess...
Who is Morgoth?
He who carried ruin with him. The Enemy. The dark One. The master of evil. Morgoth Bauglir, Melkor. Long ago, he was the proudest of the Valar who turned to evil out of his lust for power. In the first song, Into The Storm, Morgoth recounts, gleefully, how he shut out the lights of Valinor by guiding in the great spider Ungoliant to devour the trees of light. However, he proceeded to cheat her of her prizes, the beautiful gems, the Silmarils and kept them for himself, chasing her away and fleeing Valinor as well....Nightfall reveals that Melkor brought evil itself to the world, slaying the Noldor elf king Finwe and stealing the gems from him, fleeing pursued by the Noldor war host, led by Feanor, Finwe's eldest son. In the pursuit? Countless Noldor are killed thanks to Morgoth luring them upon the ice of Araman, arriving in Middle Earth where he sets up his kingdom in the east.
We hear through the lyrics Morgoth has set up an empire of slavery, torture and death, at one point capturing Feanor's eldest son Maedhros and having him hideously tortured, mocking him for his defiance until Maedhros is found by his cousin Fingon, who saves him by severing his hand to release him from his manacle....Maedhros's suffering is conveyed through these lyrics: I see it still burns, Each night I cry in pain, Alive/Though the end appears my friend And blood tears I cry/ You've searched and you've found/Cut off your old friends hand
My mind's In frozen dreams The rotten flesh Of bitter lies Welcome to where time stands still Noone leaves and noone ever will
In the Battle of Sudden Flame, Morgoth exterminates the Noldor war host, killing countless of them, prompting the king of the Noldor, Feanor's younger brother Fingolfin to ride and challenge him, with Morgoth winning the duel at cost to himself, "crushing down the Noldor's proudest king", mocking Fingolfin all the while for 'troubling his day' and relishing causing him pain.
We later see Morgoth kidnaps Fingolfin's grandson, Maeglin, and subjects him to torture to betray the city of Gondolin, before jumping through to the capture of the warrior Hurin, Morgoth torturing him as well as he prepares for the final war, proclaiming that Valinor has loosed all the hosts of men and elves against him and "they will be damned" for standing against him, plotting to kill them all, while forcing Hurin to see Morgoth tormenting his kin in A Dark Passage: "Sit down on your chair and look up to your kin! With all eyes you'll see, with my ears you'll hear! You've troubled my day and you've questioned my strength, don't mess with the master of fate!" All while boasting of how he smashed the lights of Valinor and will never stop until he is king of the world...the finale ends with his defeat pending, doomed to be locked away and imprisoned in a black void...for all time.
Heinousness?
He's Morgoth, the lord of evil. Tons of death, murder, torture, you name it, Morgoth's got it, even in song form.
Mitigating Qualities?
Zero. A lot of the songs are from Morgoth's own POV and he narrates enough with the music making it explicitly clear what's happening. No redeeming qualities whatsoever and even at the end, he only sees Sauron himself as a servant and still finds time to gloat in how he left ruin in his wake. His care for Ungoliant doesn't exist as he tries to cheat her of her reward as he promised her and he only views others in ways of how he can dominate, destroy, torture or rule.
Conclusion?
yes here. Easily.

to Father
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."StuSnyder.