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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#127676: Aug 25th 2018 at 10:57:58 AM

[tup] Risa, Munsey and Usami

[tdown] Carroll

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#127677: Aug 25th 2018 at 11:07:13 AM

Risa seems like a yes, albeit at a lesser tier than most Kamen monsters.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#127678: Aug 25th 2018 at 11:09:21 AM

[tup] to Captain Munsey and Risa Fukami (she sounds utterly insane to be honest).

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Snailfish Silver Shamrock's Halloween three from Santa Mira, California Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Love is for the living, Sal
Silver Shamrock's Halloween three
#127680: Aug 25th 2018 at 11:22:26 AM

Regarding Shannon Lucas from earlier, well, the movie is pretty lighthearted in spite of her. Even after the villain reveal, there's still some slapstick moments as the gang and crew try to escape. That said, Shannon herself doesn't have any comedic qualities and stands out as a nasty sociopath. I'm not sure if these kinds of villains can be played straight in such a setting though.

All witches, all skeletons, all jack O Lanterns, gather round your TV set, put on your masks, and watch...watch the magic pumpkin, Watch...
DukeNukem4ever Since: Jan, 2017
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#127682: Aug 25th 2018 at 11:34:42 AM

I've abstained on her myself, as I'm not sure how it's played...she's bad, but I'm just not sure the requisite weight is given.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#127683: Aug 25th 2018 at 12:03:56 PM

[up][up] I think most people abstained on her rather than downvoting. There were 3 nos 2 yeses and a lot of abstains.

Also Snailfish please try to be watching the forum closely after doing an EP so you can address these things earlier.

Edited by papyru30 on Aug 25th 2018 at 1:18:00 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#127684: Aug 25th 2018 at 12:23:00 PM

[tup]Usami, Munsey and Risa (I think a Knight Templar CM for Agito when the MOTW's and Big Bad known as the Lord's were Well-Intentioned Extremist 's is actually kinda poetic in a way).

Edited by miraculous on Aug 25th 2018 at 12:25:47 PM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#127685: Aug 25th 2018 at 12:27:50 PM

[tup]to Usami, Munsey and Risa

[tdown] To Carol

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Devoted2Nintendo Since: Jul, 2018
#127686: Aug 25th 2018 at 12:28:42 PM

Hi, I'm back again, and I have a mix of propositions and inquiries I'd like to make. Thankfully, I don't think any of them should take too long to explain or cover, so hopefully, this won't be as long as some of my other posts to date (and even if it is, it won't all be about one subject).

The first topic I'd like to cover is Sendak's CM write-up. I just saw it earlier today, and I have no problems with it. In fact, I think it looks great! It's very well-written and highlights all the main crimes from his invasion of Earth very clearly. However, there is one addition I'd like to propose that I think could improve it even more. Even before season 7, in the first episode of season 6, Sendak lead the Fire of Purification in an assault on the Omega Shield Base, which left the entire labor colony it was protecting exposed to lethal radiation which could kill everyone if the shield wasn't restored in time. On top of that, the only reason Sendak did this is because Commander Bogh and the colony had pledged their loyalty to Lotor, and he was making it his mission to wipe out all Galra who were loyal to him due to not seeing them as worthy of living. While I can easily agree that the majority of his truly heinous crimes take place when he invades Earth in the following season, I still think this stands alongside those actions quite well, and to be completely honest, this was the point that I started thinking Sendak had CM potential. So what do you guys think? Was this overlooked, and do you think it would contribute to his CM post? Or do think it still heavily pales in comparison to his actions is season 7 and wouldn't add anything meaningful? I happen to be of the opinion that trying to expose an entire labor colony to lethal radiation just because they were loyal to Lotor and not him is pretty high up there in heinousness, but maybe I'm the only one here who's seen it that thinks that.

The second topic I wanted to address is an inquiry that actually been floating around in the back of my head for a while, but only now, did I think to ask it; could someone tell me why the original Demon King Piccolo from the original Dragon Ball series doesn't count (NOT to be confused with Piccolo Jr., the one we know and love from Dragon Ball Z)? Among the anime classics, Dragon Ball is one of my favorites, and haven't watched it in full a few years back, I distinctly recall him being the most heinous characters from that part of the story, and by a pretty big margin at that. What exactly is it about him that disqualifies him from this trope? The best reason I can think of is that despite being a major example of a Knight of Cerebus (even much more so than Mercenary Tao) and darkening the show to the point that for the first time, it felt more in line tone-wise with Dragon Ball Z, he still managed to have this slightly campy "bwa ha ha, look how evil I am!" feel to him that you would expect from a Saturday morning cartoon villain. However, that seems too minor to possibly be a dis-qualifier on its own, especially since it still didn't detract from how much of a major threat he was to the entire world. So what am I missing? Did he perhaps show care about his children/offspring when they were killed by Goku, because I feel like if anyone from the original Dragon Ball series counts, it's definitely him.

The third and final topic I wanted to bring up is another inquiry; has anyone here, by any chance, seen the movie Escaflowne, or alternatively, Escaflowne: A Girl in Gaea? It's a movie adaptation of the classic series, The Vision of Escaflowne. It was somewhat infamous for provoking very mixed reception among Escaflowne fans for among other things, condensing the TV series' plot into an hour-and-a-half feature film (which often works out as well as you'd expect), it's considerably darker and angsty tone, multiple characters having their personalities changed so that they barely resemble themselves, etc. But I digress. I'm bringing this up because while I have watched the original series, and can guarantee you all that none of the antagonists meet all the requirements of a CM, or are even that close, from what little I've read, the movie version of Folken Fanel, Van's older brother, might actually count. This is actually a bit hard for me to even suggest, since the Folken from the original series is nowhere CLOSE to being a CM; he's as much of an Anti-Villain as you can get, has many positive qualities, pulls a Heel–Face Turn later on, and I'm proud to admit he's one of my favorite characters from that show. Apparently though, his movie version undergoes a MAJOR case of Adaptational Villainy, to the point that he's pretty much a completely different character; he's the main antagonist who's responsible for pretty much everything wrong in Gaea, and a Self-Made Orphan to boot, he's far more psychotic, with a strong taste for Disproportionate Retribution, and doesn't seem to have any of the numerous positive traits that his TV counterpart had. I never bothered watching it because, while it definitely sounds like it has some merits of its own, it just seemed like it paled in comparison to the TV series in too many ways to be worth it, so what I know isn't very detailed or reliable, but if anyone else has see it, or would be willing to, I'd like to know what you think of him. Thank you!

Edited by Devoted2Nintendo on Aug 27th 2018 at 6:30:12 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#127687: Aug 25th 2018 at 12:33:56 PM

I'll let Lighty answer the first one.

For Piccolo, looking at his character page, it seems he cares about his kids, and even besides that, it looks like he's Made of Evil and therefore lacking agency.

As for Escaflowne, I don't think that's been brought up. Feel free to do an effortpost.

Edited by ACW on Aug 25th 2018 at 3:34:12 PM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#127688: Aug 25th 2018 at 12:35:41 PM

Maybe I'll check out the Escaflowne movie. I have no issue adding that to Sendak's writeup.

That said, Piccolo Daimyo is Made of Evil, without agency.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#127689: Aug 25th 2018 at 12:37:43 PM

For Sendak's writeup, it's at Voltron: Legendary Defender, so feel free to adjust that how'd you like and post it here.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#127690: Aug 25th 2018 at 12:42:12 PM

Nah King Piccollo doesnt count. Even ignoring the fact that he's Kami's evil split of from him personfied. His competetion are guys with attempted or succesful body countsd in the billions, Not heinous enough IMHO.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#127691: Aug 25th 2018 at 12:43:41 PM

BTW, 33 so far (not including the DC stuff. I'll submit those along with the de-potholed DC stuff separately; I'm just waiting to hear from Scraggle on some things).

Devoted2Nintendo Since: Jul, 2018
#127692: Aug 25th 2018 at 12:44:08 PM

Thanks guys! I just have one additional question; I can definitely see where the Made of Evil argument for King Piccolo is coming from, since from what I can recall, he was the evil within Kami that he cast out of himself, which then took on a life of its own. Despite that though, his "son", Piccolo Jr., clearly showed moral agency and the ability to decide what he could be, as evidenced by that fact that he became the good guy we know today after simply spending enough time with Gohan. Could that indicate that the original Piccolo also had enough free will to have the ability to choose what he could be, or did he not have that like his later incarnation did?

[up][up] There's characters from the original Dragon Ball series with attempted or successful body counts in the billions?! Since when?! In Dragon Ball Z, sure, but I don't recall anything or anyone like that in the original series!

[down][down] If that's true, then I never came across any of the reasons he doesn't count before now. Sorry for not doing a thorough search beforehand. Navigating previous discussions can be quite a nuisance, especially if both the character and the series in question have similar names to others, specifically the original Demon King Piccolo having almost the same name as his son/successor, and Dragon Ball having the same name as its sequel, minus the Z. So in my defense, finding discussions specifically about him could have been very difficult, and I'm not trying to discuss him so much as looking for a simple confirmation on why he does't count without potentially doing all that searching in vain.

[down][down][down][down] Fair enough. I just thought that since the original series has such a different focus and tone compared to Z and Super, it was only fair for the original King Piccolo to be compared to others characters from that particular part of the story, since it could rightly be seen as its own series, with a much lower bar for what's considered heinous enough.

Edited by Devoted2Nintendo on Aug 25th 2018 at 4:35:49 AM

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#127693: Aug 25th 2018 at 12:59:02 PM

As she is not exclusive to the movie, i'll be treating her as part of the show.

  • Kamen Rider Agito: Captain Risa Fukami is a dangerous combination of incompetence and sociopathy. An officer working for the Japanese Ground Self-Defence Forces, Risa was in charge of an educational facility that exploited the abilities of psychic orphans. When the high levels of ESP attracted the attention of the Ant Lords, Risa merely saw the massacre as a failed experiment. Stealing information from the G3 Unit, Risa completes the lethal G4 System and equips suicidal volunteers with it until she can find a way for it to be mass-produced, resulting in at least six casualties. After kidnapping Mana Kazaya, Risa connects her with a machine that absorbs her powers and gives them to the G4 System. Realizing that she had brought the Ant Lords to her base to kill even more people, Risa cowardly uses some of her soldiers as human shields, willing to sacrifice the lives of others even in the face of death.

[down][down] Fine with me.

Edited by TheMadCr0w on Aug 25th 2018 at 6:05:58 AM

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#127694: Aug 25th 2018 at 1:00:04 PM

King Piccolo has been discussed to death. He doesn't count, for several reasons. No reason to keep talking about a non-keeper, especially when you could the search bar to look up the ten+ pages of discussion he has had.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#127695: Aug 25th 2018 at 1:17:29 PM

Should I wrap the movie's title around "G4 System"?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#127696: Aug 25th 2018 at 1:19:26 PM

[up][up][up][up]Z and Super have them (Frieza, Cell, Buu and Zamasu to name the worst). The grandafther clause only goes back so far and consideing the huge jump that happened in terms of heinous standard. Its not enough.

Edited by miraculous on Aug 25th 2018 at 1:30:02 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ReynTime250 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#127697: Aug 25th 2018 at 2:19:22 PM

I don't think we should ever discuss DB until the next movie, every villain that has a chance or is already confirmed to count has pretty much been discussed to death already. There's no one to discuss.

Honestly, I feel like DB villains as a whole should be put on the Never Again list, but I could be over-reacting.

Edited by ReynTime250 on Aug 25th 2018 at 10:19:13 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#127698: Aug 25th 2018 at 2:22:45 PM

I mean there's going to be a movie and another anime soon. Fighter Z due to its huge sucess will definetly get a sequel. I dont think its fair to say no one will count in the future as there's plenty of new material coming up and the franchise is well known for trying to constantly up the stakes.

That being said we should defintly stop discussing the old villains as we have a crapton of pages discussing all of them and constantly came back to the same decisions on all of them over and over again.

Edited by miraculous on Aug 25th 2018 at 2:24:08 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#127699: Aug 25th 2018 at 2:27:13 PM

[up][up] I don't think it's over-reacting. DB is one of the most popular animes, with billions of fans all over the world so it is kind of a given that users who are new to this thread and negilate to use the search bar will keep bringing up their go-to evil villains (King Piccolo, Dr. Gero, Baby) who ultimately don't count.

So, yes I approve of putting DB as a whole on the NA list until two weeks after the new movie.

Edited by username2527 on Aug 25th 2018 at 2:27:21 AM

Knack Since: Mar, 2018
#127700: Aug 25th 2018 at 2:30:59 PM

Honestly I don't mind that either. Every single character who counts is currently listed and every single character brought up who doesn't count was thoroughly discussed as well. There isn't much more to say about it. It doesn't necessarily have to be on the list at all but it still might help.

Edited by Knack on Aug 25th 2018 at 2:33:19 AM


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