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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#127301: Aug 21st 2018 at 5:48:30 PM

Mmm... okay, questions about how serious this is aside (I've seen a few of the direct-to-DVD Scooby Doo movies — the tone of these movies aren't along the lines of Zombie Island or Mystery Incorporated, this is more lighthearted, kid-friendly What's New Scooby Doo with the occasional terrible contemporary joke) I'm dubious as to if Shannon is even bad enough. Murder for a pretty petty reason, yes, but is that is? Does she have any other nasty Kick the Dog moments to bolster this that stand out for the nature of the tone and medium?

I'm going to say "no" for now.

Knack Since: Mar, 2018
#127302: Aug 21st 2018 at 6:50:23 PM

Yes to Colonel Vlassov, Rotgier and Gotfried, and the kid.

No to Shannon for now, I watched alot of those films and even though Zombie Island wasn't genuinely scary? It was the single direct to video film that had a considerably darker tone that I remember. Alot of that film wasn't intended as comical in the slightest. I don't believe it was the same for the others, cautious no for now.

Edited by Knack on Aug 21st 2018 at 7:11:55 AM

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#127303: Aug 21st 2018 at 7:10:08 PM

I explained the story is there. They give the characters a bit of backstory and expand upon them briefly...but as far as an evil checklist goes, they don't really shy away from what happens in prison.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Knack Since: Mar, 2018
#127304: Aug 21st 2018 at 7:15:36 PM

@Beast Okay, just wanted to be sure as three entries had to be cut for that. Nosleeps are either stories that are well written, or don't have any merit as they are a checklist of evil things. Much like creepypastas. You have to make sure otherwise it may be trouble later is all.

Edited by Knack on Aug 21st 2018 at 7:17:11 AM

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#127305: Aug 21st 2018 at 7:17:02 PM

[tup] Rotgier and Gotfried. Yeah, Polish CM!

[tup] the Kid

Also. Dunno if worth mentioning here, but...how do you all "prefer" your CM? What do you like more? Them being lesser than human (AKA. emotional asshole), them being almost super human (the classic "there nothing wrong with me, except that there something wrong with me", I keep my calm despite almost everything) or them being human in the most mundane way (wide emotional range without faking it, still evil).

I prefer the later IMO. Mainly because I really don't believe that Evil is deshumanizating per se and that I really believe that regular people with normal emotions can do awful acts with no altruist traits at all. And, well...I actually dislike the "Superhuman evil" type of evilness, where they are always calm, I think that is just boring tongue.

Watch me destroying my country
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#127306: Aug 21st 2018 at 7:24:01 PM

[tup]Vlassov, Rotgier, Gotfried, and the Kid.

[up]I generally prefer the third type, but it really depends on how the character is written. Any "type" of those C Ms could be done really well or really shoddy; it just depends on who's writing them.

Why so serious?
Knack Since: Mar, 2018
#127307: Aug 21st 2018 at 7:25:09 PM

@Kazuya Don't understand what the point of talking about that is. The "superhuman evil" characters who count aren't necessarily boring either. The plutonian was a great antagonist and he counts, as is The Terror in The Tick, and many other superhuman antagonists. Yeah there are some lousy antagonists who count, but alot of those antagonists count unintentionally in a faulty attempt to make them sympathetic. Even if a character isn't complex, at the bare minimum they were portrayed how the writer intended. It depends is all I will say, as I don't believe it will add all that much to talk about it for now as it isn't able to be determined in a concrete fashion, the execution is what is important and if the execution is lousy for a character, said character likely isn't good. Look at Sugou in SAO for how to execute it in a lousy fashion. He isn't an antagonist who is a "superhuman evil" antagonist, but doesn't have ANYTHING good about him as an antagonist. He is the incarnation of "intent is as heinous as success" as he doesn't genuinely succeed in ANYTHING he does even though he was meant to be the arch enemy of the main character and main antagonist for that arc. He is more of a flat character than Ronan. He just isn't good at all.

Edited by Knack on Aug 21st 2018 at 7:35:29 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#127309: Aug 21st 2018 at 7:40:27 PM

[tup] Vlassof, the Teutonic duo, and the Kid. [tdown] to Shannon. Since no one objected to my proposed edit of Hody Jones' entry from yesterday I'll add it to the Drafts soon. For reference here is the edited entry, the only alteration is that the only entry said he mortally wounded Vander Decken which I changed to severely wounded since he survived the injury.

  • Fishman Island Arc: Hody Jones is a fishman with all of Arlong's hatred of humans but none of his care for his fellow people. Disgusted by the benevolent Queen Otohime's petition that intended to improve relations between humans and fishmen, Hody Jones hired a human to burn the signature box. Hody then assassinated Otohime and framed the human for it, proudly bragging about his crimes when they're discovered. When he takes over Fishman Island, he declares that all of the fishmen who had signed Queen Otohime's petition will be executed. When his ally Vander Decken uses his Devil Fruit power to send the giant ship Noah after Princess Shirahoshi, Hody severely wounds Vander Decken to cause the latter's powers to deactivate in an attempt to have Noah crash down on Fishman Island.

Edit: Also the Dimentio rewrite looks good.

Edited by TommyFresh on Aug 21st 2018 at 7:53:55 AM

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#127310: Aug 21st 2018 at 7:41:42 PM

[tup] The Kid. Dunno why, but i love Monsters that are the incarnation of Face of an Angel, Mind of a Demon.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#127311: Aug 21st 2018 at 7:42:48 PM

Missed the Westcott vote but wanted to say that getting turned on by the despair of the few people that actually like you due to your own death is a... special kind of special. Freaking loon.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#127312: Aug 21st 2018 at 7:43:25 PM

I never really considered myself type of guy who doesn't have a "prefered type".

I guess I love a CM that is a subversion of Draco in Leather Pants, because I have a love/hate feelings towards that trope and Ron the Death Eater (I'm not above using these tropes in fanworks myself, but I have certain limitations).

I think Kai Parker is the best example of this kind of villain because he was written from the ground up to be pure evil and constantly mocks DILP with nearly everytime he appears (his actor Chris Wood also seems to be having a blast doing it).

Another type I like is the kind of CM you don't expect; I'm not just talking Hidden Villains either, but rather the type you don't really expect to count their stint as a villain, due to how they screw up attempts to give them redeeming qualities.

I'd say Verna Sawyer is such an example because I always had a feeling the writers intended her care for her son to be genuine, it's just they went so far as to make her as unsympathetic as possible that their attempts to give her redeeming qualities fall flat because she comes off as hollow about he empathy and narcissistic about her family.

Others of the "Unexpected CM" type are pleasant surprises of they are initially played for sympathy or you think they are gonna be some kind of sympathetic antagonist; I'd say Lucien Castle is a pleasent surprise because he shed away his last redeeming quality on his last two appearances.

Then there Arcadius, who's first episode makes you think he's gonna be a Tragic Villain but then his subsequent appearances show him as this delightfully wicked individual who goes above and beyond what his backstory warrants and is absolutely proud that he's He Who Fights Monsters.

But I guess the biggest pleasent surpsise would be Elle Sheridan, because with his backstory and previous character portrayal, you'd think she'd at the very least be a sympathetic villain, but then they make her out to be a selfish vindicitive woman who is willing to throw all of her friends under the bus in order to get a minimal reward.

Edited by Beast on Aug 21st 2018 at 9:43:56 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#127313: Aug 21st 2018 at 8:13:19 PM

The plutonian was a great antagonist and he counts

With superhuman I don't mean that it has superpowers, I mean in terms of emotional range. The Plutonian had a lot of emotions and that is why I Love to Hate him. The guy is very human, personality wise.

With superhuman, I mean the ones that always stay calm despite everything. I actually don't like that type of villains and I prefer having all villains struggling but keep going (just like heroes).

Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 21st 2018 at 10:14:50 AM

Watch me destroying my country
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#127314: Aug 21st 2018 at 8:35:21 PM

I always like villains, CM or not, to have a distinct view of the world and people around them and that, even if they're a stereotypical type of villain (Corrupt Corporate Executive, The Emperor, etc) they're compelling and there is a clear thought process behind their actions. That's why I love the Joker in modern incarnations, his world views are distinct and his actions fit in with that view. Say an Evil Overlord is an Immortality Seeker who wants to rule forever, if they feel that they're entitled to be in power forever or that the world would be better off with them in power, then that's more interesting then if they just liked power and didn't want to die. That's why I enjoy Evil Cannot Comprehend Good because it shows how their worldviews clash.

Knack Since: Mar, 2018
#127315: Aug 21st 2018 at 9:04:02 PM

@Kazuya I like those antagonists that always remain completely calm though, the reason why is that an antagonist who doesn't show emotion at all who count is disturbing as hell much of the time, like Kevin in Sin City. His death scene is disturbing as fuck. It works extremely well for making the antagonist seeming perfectly normal at all times, but still having an unsettling contrast between their crimes and how they act, it is a great method of making them intimidating and menacing. It depends as well, they are able to struggle as much as the protagonist, but when you say at all times, are you saying "don't show any signs of pain or excitement either" at all? Since there are many who are pretty good who don't show ANY signs of any emotion and do struggle in an even fight like Kevin. That said I don't prefer a specific antagonist who counts if they are portrayed well.

Edited by Knack on Aug 21st 2018 at 9:05:03 AM

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#127316: Aug 21st 2018 at 9:08:40 PM

Alright, I just finished Ranpo Kitan. And there is an unapproved entry that Lighty removed and having watched it...I'm unsure if he qualifies but I think an EP on him doesn't hurt. There's also another one that's on consideration but I'll do those two later. Without further ado, let's begin:

What's the Work

Ranpo Kitan: Game of Laplace is a 2015 anime loosely based on Edogawa Ranpo's works in order to celebrate his 50th death. The story at first takes place in a school which a boy named Kobayashi attends to. Here, Kobayashi was incriminated due to a murder incident that happened in the school. However, his life really changes when he meet a renowned detective in Japan, Detective Akechi. Needless to say, Kobayashi takes an interest in Akechi and, in spite of his friend Hashiba's worries, he volunteers to be Akechi's assistant.

Our candidate here comes from the third episode of the story... In this episode, Akechi and Kobayashi tries to solve a case about the kidnappings of several girls and needless to say, they suspected the gentleman thief, the Shadow Man, as the suspect of the kidnappings. However, this was not the case...

Who is He/What Has He Done

So the real kidnapper is a fat man called Watanuki. He is the son of a director of Famous Cement company (at least from what I recall). In Episode 3, Kobayashi and the Shadow Man infiltrate Watanuki's hideout in a certain warehouse and in there, they find 4 kids that live in fear thanks to Watanuki's doing. The reason why they live in fear is because Watanuki forces them to become his daughters otherwise they will be crushed with a cement and then will be used as a decoration for his wall if they refused. This was proven by a girl named Sachiko, who is the only friend that the Shadow Man made in the past, and the other 4 girls who got turned into cements. Oh! I need to mention this: Sachiko suffers an unknown illness and she needs an operation and needless to say, the Shadow Man helps her by donating the money that he stole and not only that, the Shadow Man gave a necklace so that she could remember him anytime. Unfortunately, Watanuki kidnaps her by disguising as Shadow Man and you know where this is going. Needless to say, the Shadow Man then snaps and tries to stop Watanuki. However, Watanuki kicks the Shadow Man in order to let go of him. Fortunately, he was caught by the police and it was implied that he was a repeat offender towards other young girls.

In Episode 4, Watanuki escapes from the prison but he was just used as a bait for another serial-killer known as Twenty Faces. When one of the employees who work at prostitution home offers him a young girl, Watanuki accepts it but it was revealed that he was trapped by Twenty Faces and he was about to be killed by the latter by getting crushed into a cement machine. However, Akechi stops Twenty Faces but luckily, Watanuki got what he deserved as he got killed by another person who poses as Twenty Faces in the next episode.

Freudian Excuse/Mitigating Factors

Ah nope! He doesn't have a Freudian Excuse or any Mitigating Factors. Zip, Zilch, Nada! Yes, his motivation is that he wants to build a family by kidnapping some female children so that they could be his daughters but there's no indication that he loves them and Watanuki also made it clear that anyone who doesn't want to be his child would be crushed into cement. Now he might be an easy keep right? However... The problem lies in the Heinous Standard of Ranpo Kitan.

Heinous Standard

So I won't going to downplay this but the heinous standard in Ranpo Kitan is batshit high. Not gonna lie, I think you will have a second judgment after I tell you the heinous standard as a whole in Ranpo Kitan. And here are the notable ones who committed it:

So the world of Ranpo Kitan is filled by Serial Killers. One of the most notable ones are the Starter Villain of the show and the show's big bad, Twenty Faces. The former is a homicidal maniac/serial killer who has a penchant to turn his victim's body into chairs and there are 6 of them. Needless to say, the starter villain is a victim himself and was killed by one of his students and also got turned into chair. And the real kicker? the victim's internal body (Bones and internal organs) were preserved in that chair.

And speaking of Serial Killers, there's this people called themselves Twenty Faces and the real Twenty Faces, Namikoshi, is basically the Big Bad of the story who is responsible for another Twenty Faces and kills some of the people indirectly who abuse him badly. Not only that, he also tries to murder 10 children by positioning them at a clock tower and have each of them jump off one by one every 5 minutes so that he could incite many people to change the awful society that they live in. And needless to say, he got a cult following. And there is another Twenty Faces, Kagami, who kills around 15 people and most of the victims that he killed are actually the criminals who escaped the law easily and his methods is rather awful in terms of punishing them. The motivation on why Kagami did this? Because one of the Serial Killers that he caught got scot-off free because Japanese Law system is completely retarded and said serial killer ended up killing his sister and needless to say, the way that the serial killer kills Kagami sister is rather awful: Hanged above a high building with mutilated limbs, wearing the dress that got her silver prize in design competition. And how Kagami retaliate after his sister got murdered? He crushed the killer's eyes, mutilated his limbs, soaked him and his limbs in a bathtub full of chemical liquid, retrieved the main body to be given a life support device.

Not only that, there is also the Owner of a corporation and his artistic friend who tried to build an amusement park who also contribute to heinous standard (They also on my EP list btw). They're responsible for mistreating their employees horribly and when one of her friends try to avenge one of the employee that died thanks to their horrible treatment, she ended up becoming a model for their statue much to her disgust as the model itself will be used as a display for their new amusement park.

So yeah, that's the picture of the Heinous Standard of Ranpo Kitan as a whole. With that being said, I'm not sure if Watanuki qualifies anymore. But if you considered targeting an already recovered sick girl and turns her into a cement after she declines to be his daughter pushes over the line, then be my guest.

Final Verdict

I'll let you guys decide but personally, I'm going to abstain at it's finest given the batshit insane heinous standard of this show.

Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Aug 21st 2018 at 11:11:05 PM

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#127317: Aug 21st 2018 at 9:10:45 PM

[up][up] Yeah, is a big YMMV thing. There a lot of good CM out there of different types. Like, I even got a Hate Sink CM that I actually like (Kokoro from To be Heroine, he used to be a decent teenager but grew up into a greedy jackass. You can see some snipets of the person that he was, but is clear that he now is just greed and Evil Is Petty, but in such a, well, human way).

[up]Uh...sorry, but as you said, the Heinous standard is just pretty High

[tdown] Watanuki.

Hoping for the other EP.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 21st 2018 at 11:14:15 AM

Watch me destroying my country
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Knack Since: Mar, 2018
#127320: Aug 21st 2018 at 10:12:35 PM

No to Watanuki.

Edited by Knack on Aug 21st 2018 at 10:14:48 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#127322: Aug 21st 2018 at 11:26:53 PM

  • Catching up:
    • [tup]: kid
    • Abstain: Shannon
    • [tdown]:Watanuki

Edited by miraculous on Aug 21st 2018 at 11:26:39 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
hegelvonaxel Since: Feb, 2018
#127323: Aug 22nd 2018 at 12:38:25 AM

[tup] Kid, Teutons, Vassof

What character you suspect was planned to be seen as CM, but failed thanks either Offscreen Villainy or one redeeming quality.

I would say Jedah from Fire Emblem Gaiden

Knack Since: Mar, 2018
#127324: Aug 22nd 2018 at 12:44:15 AM

[up] It does happen but it isn't common, but in Knights of The Old Republic there was Xor who might've counted (Might've, the heinous standard of Legends is high) as a result of completely minimal resources, as in two thugs he hired and that is it. He doesn't count though as virtually all of his crimes are offscreen. I didn't believe he would count since he is a minor character who appears twice briefly in the game and didn't do much that is onscreen, but he wasn't necessarily intended to count.

That said, you won't be able to tell if they were intended to count. There are people who do make claims about other people to make them sound heinous, characters may do that for themselves to make people fear them or see them as dispacable but didn't do what they claim, there isn't enough information to say for sure.

Edited by Knack on Aug 22nd 2018 at 1:10:09 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#127325: Aug 22nd 2018 at 1:32:18 AM

I already requested the change for Hody.


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