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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#126426: Aug 12th 2018 at 12:48:47 PM

There are some demons capable of overcoming their nature at times. One could make the argument for some, but it depends. Ones like Demogorgon and I'd be really reticent. Ones like Grazz'zt I'd be more willing to hear out.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#126428: Aug 12th 2018 at 1:07:24 PM

Thanks I was asking because I was curious about the IFCC from The Order of the Stick who i think may start doing some horrible things in the future.

Here's my rewrite for the Autarch

  • Complete Monster: The Autarch is the ruler of Aygrima who created the masks to prevent any rebellions from ever happening. He is introduced overseeing the destruction of a village which is the last in a series of villages he's destroyed in his pursuit of the Lady of Pain and Fire. If a person fails their masking he sentences them to work in a mine in the mountains for life. He has an extreme Lack of Empathy for everyone around him, shrugging off the deaths of his personal guard and closest advisors. He's an Immortality Seeker who is fully willing to suck the life out of all of his subjects and personally shows up at the masking of several gifted just for this purpose, a decision that normally leads the failure of that person's masking. He has a group of young gifted follow him around so he can sap magic for them which leaves them sickly and weak. Not long before the start of the series he has all masks changed so that all citizens become extremely submissive to his rule and later uses these masks to control all citizens to fight the rebels attacking the capital causing many of them to die in combat and others to drop dead once they are released from his control. Finally he intends to posses Mara's body to extend his lifespan.

Edited by papyru30 on Aug 12th 2018 at 2:16:20 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#126429: Aug 12th 2018 at 1:08:44 PM

[tup] Sargon (played by Randy Couture, FWIW).

I know we have the Dragon Emperor from the 3rd film as a CM (I have no idea how we're gonna group these), and Imhotep seems to have a loved one, but why doesn't Scorpion King (the bad one, from the second film) count?

[up] Please add here, and it'll go with next week's batch.

Edited by ACW on Aug 12th 2018 at 4:08:58 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#126430: Aug 12th 2018 at 1:10:04 PM

Next to zero character on his own and if he is Mathayus then he has a fuckton of redeeming qualities.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#126431: Aug 12th 2018 at 1:10:11 PM

[up][up]Generic Doomsday Villain

Edit: [nja]

Edited by miraculous on Aug 12th 2018 at 1:10:05 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#126432: Aug 12th 2018 at 1:11:31 PM

That's a shame. Mathayus or not, you have The Rock, you don't have him play a GDV.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#126433: Aug 12th 2018 at 1:15:16 PM

miraculous was that directed at me?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#126434: Aug 12th 2018 at 1:18:45 PM

....Uh I was talking to acw. Hence the two arrows to his post. I said the OG scorpion King is a GDV which he is.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#126435: Aug 12th 2018 at 1:22:46 PM

Sorry I was confused by the [nja] symbol.

MenInGreyToBlak V Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
V
#126436: Aug 12th 2018 at 1:30:16 PM

Nevermind, if anyone wants to talk with me about the candidates I talked about in that earlier post, PM me. Don't want to clog the thread with measly paragraphs.

Edited by MenInGreyToBlak on Aug 12th 2018 at 10:29:59 AM

JoeBlitz Since: Dec, 2016
#126437: Aug 12th 2018 at 1:30:46 PM

[tup] to the Cult Leader and Sargon, and congratulations to Stellarvore!

"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#126438: Aug 12th 2018 at 1:40:57 PM

Congrats to Stella.

And [tup] to Sargon of Akkad.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#126440: Aug 12th 2018 at 1:57:54 PM

GJ Stellarvore and yes to Sargon. Men, you can go ahead and PM me if you wanna talk.

Edited by 43110 on Aug 12th 2018 at 5:00:28 AM

MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#126441: Aug 12th 2018 at 2:01:03 PM

[tup]Cult Leader and Sargon

Now which of these quotes could work for Morlach?

  • "Death was present, death was many. The terror had been unleashed in a fire ball of fury. Nothing would escape its wrath. When smiles and tears are dust, all that will be left are the bones."
— Chovian Fields Fairy Statue text about Morlach's massacre of Oderra village.

  • "Look at the castle around you. The mortals here tried their best to stand up against me but they have failed. Just like you will fail. You have no chance, so simply just give up and die!"
— Morlach gloating about the Castle Bhalstok massacre to Link.

  • "Once I defeat you and drain your soul, I will have great pleasure in destroying your land..."
— Morlach unleashing his physical form after realizing how much of a threat Link is.

Edited by MasterJoseph on Aug 12th 2018 at 2:03:21 AM

IPP Wick Check created.
Knack Since: Mar, 2018
#126442: Aug 12th 2018 at 2:15:54 PM

[up] The statue text sounds better than the others for that.

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#126443: Aug 12th 2018 at 2:27:45 PM

Ok, I'm back after...three months?! Damn I forgot that I planned to participate more! I wasn't even doing anything that warranted a long absence, I just forgot to participate. Well I will just give a [tup] to anyone who was proposed since yesterday.

So anyways, the reason for my return: Red Vs Blue stuff, since the new season has ended. Two potential candidates who I can focus on in the future, but since the actual arc isn't done yet, I will wait to propose on them.

First dude is known as Chrovos, the Big Bad. He is either a deity or a very technologically advanced being. Created the Cosmic Powers, advanced AIs who act as gods, but rebelled against their creator as they found him too evil. Chrovos poses as the Christian God and uses the main characters to cause a paradox that will end the universe and free him from imprisonment. And he wins.

Second dude is Genkins, one of the aforementioned Cosmic Powers and The Heavy. This guy is a massive troll and seeks amusement. He is bored with the universe and wants to end it and release Chrovos so that he can try out unique designs for a new universe (he really wants to create a world where everyone has butts for faces). Might be too funny, but his threat level is not diminished at all.

These guys I will properly propose once their stories have concluded.

Edited by SatoshiBakura on Aug 12th 2018 at 5:30:50 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#126444: Aug 12th 2018 at 2:45:42 PM

BTW, in case anyone missed it, here's this week's batch, before I submit tomorrow morning.

EDIT: Oh for fuck's sake. There's a novel that tries to make BILE a WIE??? Though from this review, it seems Bile is Depending on the Author, so let's just file it under that and be done with it.

Edited by ACW on Aug 12th 2018 at 6:06:51 AM

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#126445: Aug 12th 2018 at 3:07:44 PM

[up] I am sure that it is the case with every Warhammer 40000 CM. Like, I am sure that there a novel that does play Abaddon as a Noble Demon that is A Lighter Shade of Black to other Chaos faction (albeit, that is set in his early days, so it may change with Character Development).

[tup] Sargon


Edit: Would you mind bringing the ep here, so we could revote as the votes are in a confused state at the moment as im not 100% sure where everyone stands thanks to all the flips back and forth.

Well. Hearing Miraculous, now I will bring again the EP to see it again. I definitely watched a full walkthrough/Let's play of the game and everything involving the character to do a judgement.


Setting?

Shin Megami Tensei IV: Apocalypse is the sort-of direct sequel to Shin Megami Tensei IV. Set in a different timeline, our protagonist, with the help of the irish god Dagda would change the events a lot, leading to them discovering the root of the Forever War of Order Versus Chaos.

Who is YHVH?

The Abrahamic God. This particular YHVH (different universes, different gods. Nothing to do with the YHVH of SMT II and Devil Survivor) took power as a war god that beat others and then he recreated the universe to become it’s Top God. Establishing the closer to monotheism in a setting that is clearly eastern.

YHVH wanted human worship to keep his power and satisfy his ego. So he created the angels and gave them the mission to preach his word and create a paradise. The angels served it’s purpose and YHVH got worship.

But…YHVH decided that worship born out of happiness wasn’t real worship. So he created Lucifer and the Archangels by dividing The Dragon Satan and caused Lucifer’ “rebellion” in a massive cosmic False Flag Operation.

This way, Lucifer and Merkabah (the fusion of the Archangels) would fight each other for the eternity. In a self feeding cycle that could only be temporarily stopped regardless of the victor. Neither side knew the truth, so they kept fighting unaware that their ideals were nothing but tools to empower worship for the sake of itself. If Merkabah' win, Merk would create his paradise before Lucifer would came back and ruine it and the same with Lucifer and his Kingdom of demons.

Their conflict eventually lead to The End of the World as We Know It thanks to several factors including our current Nationalist CM who was another pawn in what would be called “God’s plan”.

Gabriel created Mikado in orders to create a paradise with some partial success, she also put the Demonic Gene inside the human population to ensure dependency, this would be important later.

In IVA proper, after Big Bad Wannabe Krishna accused Merkabah and Lucifer of being the same and all of them were killed. The Protagonist goes to fight YHVH himself to stop the Forever War from re-starting and either living in peace or recreating the world While leaving all demons Deader than Dead.

Nanashi sees Merkabah and Lucifer reappearing before fusing into Satan, who wants beats his creator due to judging him unworthy of being the Top God.

Nanashi and Satan reach YHVH. He acts as a massive Smug Snake and demand worship from Nanashi and deciding destroy the world again to start again. The fight starts where YHVH is reduced to its real, corrupted and mythological Yaldabaoth-like form. Our God finally dies, cursing Nanashi with His last breath and promising return in the future.

In a DLC set in the Omnicidal Maniac Massacre route, Explosive Epidemic in Mikado where Nanashi is way more open about his intention to kill YHVH and thus give Him time to react. We finally see the effects of the Demonic Gene being activated directly for YHVH.

Basically. YHVH causes a outbreak of a Hate Plague in his own Holy City that turns the population in crazy half demon hybrids which identify themselves as a new holy supreme race, with comic relief Smug Snake Hugo going full Sinister Minister by having gained control of his compatriots and using his stomach as a gate to YHVH’ personal Universe with the intention of infecting everyone in Mikado with the gene (yeah, genes are infections) before being killed for Nanashi in an act that kills the Mikadoites as well.

Heinous stardard?

Destroyed the world several times in order to ensure constant worship. Every action of Lucifer and the Angels in IV and IVA is his fault (how the duo not knowing that they are paws is mitigating for YHVH?). Easy pass here.

The body count is just so big, especially when you add the Mikado' infection (the angels put the gene, but YHVH activated it when He could, that is why he didn't do it in the Bonds route).

Villain Protagonist Nanashi in the Massacre route is his only competence in the heinousness department, but YHVH does have way more time in the Mass Murder business.

He's so bad that The Axiom, reality itself shaped for the human mind, decided that He had to be deposed. Creating Flynn and Nanashi with the sole reason to do it.

Redeeming traits?

Not really. The angels believe in Utopia Justifies the Means, but IVA!YHVH actively sabotages their utopia.

The best thing that can be said about YHVH is that he isn’t destroying civilization all the time. But he needs that worship, so is likely for that.

There some rumours of him having become crazy due to being Lonely at the Top. But no, that never appear in the game proper. Maybe in guides, but the game itself? Sorry but it doesn't exist.

For agency issues. There none, heck, IVA does have several demons acting beyond their natural roles including Main character Dagda. YHVH is acting out his own free will, which he actually respect so much that he's gonna arrange the apocalypse so the survivors worship him out of their free will and not just because they live in peace.

There also the argument that He does have few screentime, which is true. But the consequences of his actions are pretty visible with the whole Forever War between Merkabah and Lucifer which is undeniably his fault, Merkabah and Lucifer were created to fight each other unaware of the real situation and while both have enought agency to rebel when they discover the truth of their origins, this just means that both were clearly manipulated from their very creation. And the demonic outbreak in Mikado is even more clear, with both Dagda and Hugo identifying YHVH as the responsable.

YHVH is (as all demons) made of the thoughts of mankind, but this don't means that He don't have moral agency. He is fully capable of doing moral choices and he chooses to be as egocentrical as possible, forcing the whole world into a Forever War with no chance of permanently ending for worship for the sake it.

He have awful actions that are clearly his fault that are visible in the entire game and a clear personality despite his role as a One-Scene Wonder.

Verdict?

[tup] to one of the most iconic examples of God Is Evil. Ironically, not the real Lawful Evil one that is the regular view of him in the fandom, given that He does actively sabotage his own angels to get worship born out of hardships (hard to get them if the world is a paradise).

Clear personality despite the lack of screentime and a fair amount of horrible crimes. I say keep.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 12th 2018 at 5:27:36 AM

Watch me destroying my country
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#126446: Aug 12th 2018 at 3:10:11 PM

[tup] to Sargon... Frock. I didn't know he is a CM until now.

Also a yea to YHVH I guess.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#126447: Aug 12th 2018 at 3:10:55 PM

Still saying nay. I'm more swayed by Hamburger's points.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#126448: Aug 12th 2018 at 3:34:44 PM

With Scraggle here, I'm quite inclined to believe the counterarguments.

Knack Since: Mar, 2018
#126449: Aug 12th 2018 at 3:39:35 PM

Yeah, thought about it for awhile and no to YHVH. It seems his crimes are ambiguous enough to where it is genuinely hard to determine how much he has done himself where Tamagami's crimes aren't ambiguous by comparison.

Edited by Knack on Aug 12th 2018 at 3:51:10 AM

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#126450: Aug 12th 2018 at 4:11:12 PM

Is kinda weird that the secondary Greater-Scope Villain has more overt acts of depravity than the primary one, I will say that.


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