During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Yes to YHVH. If he isn't mentally unstable to where it affects agency which was brought up but not sure if Kazuya has any counterarguments or anything.
@ACW Yeah it might be better to not pay attention to that suggestion that poster had for those MCU entries, it won't help anything and frankly it isn't how it is supposed to go anyways.
Edited by Knack on Aug 9th 2018 at 11:53:54 AM
Reposting this as it got ignored.
Is anyone familiar with Baten Kaitos. As these two could do with a rewrite
- Complete Monster:
- Wiseman from the second game is a raging psychopath, with a purely sadistic edge and a Lack of Empathy for all living beings. Wiseman, a millennium before the series began, began to believe existence of the body was flawed. He fell to evil and began devouring the energy of his followers before embarking on a war of conquest that look the lives of men, women and children. To spite a group of heroes who stood against him, Wiseman killed near everyone in their hometown, and left only two survivors. He attempted to convert the world to energy and absorb it within himself. Despite failing, Wiseman was not destroyed and possessed Verus and corrupted him. Wiseman manipulates all of Verus's atrocities, causing mass death and even torture of his former lover. When forced to reveal himself, Wiseman declares his intents to devour the heroes' hearts and rule over their world for eternity.
- Baten Kaitos Origins has Quaestor Verus, who, while acting under the guise of a Reasonable Authority Figure, coldly masterminds the plot to become the Emperor by taking advantage of everyone else. Before the game's events, he uses a just born baby Sagi (who is probably his illegitimate son) in a lethal experiment that fuses pieces of dead evil gods with living beings. During the game, he orders Shanath (a massive Jerkass in his own right) to cross the Moral Event Horizon by taking Sagi's mother Gena's wings off in the public election speech...just to smear on the reputation of someone getting in his way. Later on, just as Baelheit is about to consider a Heel–Face Turn, Quaestor Verus shows up, murders him, and starts gloating about all his deeds.
De-potholed Rice (Pierce is waiting until I see if Ravok can trim the original):
- Dr. Zander Rice is the head of the X-23 experiment. Before heading the X-23 experiment, Rice orchestrates the near-total genocide of mutantkind with a sterilizing virus that eradicates the X-gene, with survivors butchered by his second-in-command, Donald Pierce, and his Reavers to be used for raw material. To create a perfect killing machine afterwards, Rice has numerous women forcibly impregnated with the X-gene afterwards, taking their mutant children afterwards and murdering the women once their use expires. Rice conducts torturous experiments on the children afterwards to breed them into mindless assassins, with full emphasis on treating the children as "things"—a mindset which leads to some of the children committing suicide. Rice ultimately breeds a clone of Logan he dubs X-24 to serve the project's purpose and orders the children all killed, dispatching Pierce to commit further atrocities in his pursuit of the children once they escape. Once Rice himself comes into the fray, Rice looses X-24 onto an innocent family and callously watches as it butchers the entire family and Xavier himself, later rounding up all the children just short of the Canadian border and threatening to kill them all before Logan. Completely devoid of any compassion or feeling towards the subjects of his horrific experiments, Zander Rice ultimately becomes one of the most deplorable characters in the series, mutant or otherwise, in his pursuit to control mutantkind.
Edited by ACW on Aug 9th 2018 at 3:21:39 PM
I have had to write this effortpost three times because this stupid website has not saved my drafts. I hate this design so much ohmy god. i even copied it and it didnt copy the entire post. twice. this EP mightbe really low effort because of it.
What's the Work?
Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Blazing Exploration Team is a short, truncated manga adaptation of the Pokemon Mystery Dungeon Explorers games. It remains nearly wholly faithful, apart from the fact that Darkrai's not in it. Who could be a CM, then? One character, thanks to the lack of special episodes, gains no redeeming qualities.
Who is Dusknoir and what does heeee do?
Dusknoir follows his game counterpart to a tee most of the time. Initially seeming to be a friendly explorer, he later reveals himself to be a villain from a Bad Future working under Primal Dialga. After Dusknoir reveals his friendly persona to be a ruse, he throws the main character and his friend into the Bad Future because of their ability to be a threat to PD's plan. l
He immediately orders them to be executed, and that's not glossed over: it's mentioned multiple times. Executing children isn't very nice. Dusknoir initially seems to be loyal to Primal D, but there are two mitigating factors to this: First, the largest: Dusknoir only follows his orders so he can stay alive.
You see, in his defeat, Dusknoir tells the main character that he will die if the future is fixed, so will everyone from that future, including Dusknoir. Immediately after this, he gets up and yells that the future cannot be changed. It seems like, or rather is like, Dusknoir simply acts in self preservation and doesn't care about the fate of the world. The Bad Future is also not glossed over: it's dead serious like the game.
Other than Dusknoir only caring about his own life, there's the fact he's an utter coward who hides under Dialga when he can't win. This is called out by one of the main characters but Dusknoir denies it. Truth is, he's a self serving snake.
Dusknoir is on the recieving end of two Heroic Sacrifice moments: the first, unsuccessfull and the sacrificer dies. the second, successfull at the cost of the other guy's life, which is what a sacrifice is. Dusknoir doesn't care either time.
Heinous Standard
Dusknoir is the most consistent threat in the book - Old Dialga looms in the background but is just quite intimidating and can't do much on his own. Dusknoir attempts to execute, and later strangle to death, two children, as well as wanting to perpetrate what's basically a post apocalypse so he can stay alive at the cost of the majority of the rest of the world's life. No other villain comes close as the rest are jokes or petty thugs. I feel like he's more serious than an average cartoon villain too- whenever Dusknoir is onscreen the book quickly stops joking around and focuses on him and getting rid of him.
'Veridcm'
I say yes. god i hate this layout. there are probably mistakes here since i rushed it. can you really blame me?
Edited by MahStache on Aug 9th 2018 at 11:38:51 AM
And Pierce (for now):
- The aforementioned Donald Pierce is the psychopathic cyborg in charge of the Reavers, Transigen's primary military might. As the head of security for Transigen, Pierce took full part in not only the hunting down, butchering, and vivisecting of many mutants for their raw materials, but also assisted in the X-23 experiments alongside the aforementioned Zander, entailing the forcible impregnation of numerous women with mutant genes, murdering them after they give birth, then raising the resulting children as tortured lab rats to be turned into submissive slaves and assassins in adulthood. When the children began rebelling, either through violence against their captors or by killing themselves, Pierce was tasked with putting them all down, and proceeded to execute several of the children. After many of the kids escape with the help of the nurses, Pierce tracked down the head nurse, Gabriela, brutally murdered her, then went on to begin hunting down the escaped children, primarily focusing on the young Laura, who would become X-23. During his hunt for the girl, Pierce forces the mutant tracker Caliban into submission by searing his flesh, tortures and likely murders a gas station attendant who spotted Laura, and eventually with Rice unleashes the Wolverine clone X-24 onto a small family housing Logan, Laura, and Professor Xavier, showing nothing but amusement as the family and Xavier are cut down. In the end, Pierce lays a trap for all the escaped children, rounding them up for a mass execution, beats and holds one of them at gunpoint to force Logan to stand down, and ultimately releases X-24 one last time to kill Logan. Motivated only by power, cruelty, and xenophobia, Donald Pierce is easily one of the most depraved villains Logan has faced, mutant or not.
About Hamburger Time (cool guy) point...
This is the thing. He is way more akin to "paranoic megalomaniac" (which he is) rather than "genuinely unable to make moral choices".
IVA!YHVH is the crazier of all versions of Him, but not enought to compromise his moral agency. He's paranoic about keeping power and that had make him do awful things. Is not redeeming or mitigating.
For his Villain Has a Point...He does say that no matter what, humanity would always want something to worship, which is pretty much true given that even secular ideas would create deities of their own (just see the Final Bosses of the Persona-verse). But unlike the Messianic Merkabah and Krishna (who legit believe that Utopia Justifies the Means), YHVH actually could realistically give humans a utopia.
But no, He choose to apply a cosmic Bait the Dog to humans and Yank The Dog Chain to his loyal angels using a unaware Lucifer to get a controlled opossition that would effectively make sure that his loyal humans worship him for a paradise that is Unwinnable by Design.
Contrast with his SMT 2 version that had a Everyone Has Standards view towards The Center (imagine a theocratic URSS) and decided wipe them to genuinely create a utopia for his most loyal followers (there was genuine egoism there, but the utopia was meant to be genuine and eternal).
IVA!YHVH is pretty much designed as a cosmic Hate Sink with no redeeming traits.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 9th 2018 at 4:40:34 AM
Watch me destroying my countryIm keeping my yes for him than.
Mah Stache: Could you uh break up Dusknoir's ep and add more details. I've actually played the game and know what he did and even im a bit confused.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Here are my drafts.
- Gangland (2001): Lucifer is the leader of a gang of criminals who survived the apocalypse. Kidnapping Dr. Adams’ family and holding them hostage for a cure to the plague, Lucifer seeks to use it in order to make himself a god. Imprisoning people who invade his turf, he keeps the women as sex slaves and servants, often abusing them. Capturing Derek, he kills his brother in front of him, having also killed Alexis’ sister in the past. Creating the Hellion, he has it capture Jared so that he can torture him. When Derek and Alexis raid his base, Lucifer leaves his men to die in the explosion, then tries to kill Alexis and Jared for the cure.
- Shadow Killers Tiger Force: Mr. Davis is the ninja leader of a prison camp where women are kidnapped and made into slaves, planning on selling 53 of them to a Middle-Eastern dealer. He allows his guards to sexually abuse, torture, and murder them should they try and escape. When one of his women is in need of medical attention, Davis lets her die in order to avoid attention from the government, quipping that she wasn’t worth much anyway. Once Lady Ninja rescues some women and destroys his empire, Davis tries to kill her.
I'm reading the manga here... eh, okay, self-preservation isn't particularly sympathetic the way Dusknoir approaches it here, but I'm not even sure he goes the full way into "qualifier" territory. All of his onscreen villainy revolves around just trying to kill the heroes, and the "end of the world" stuff is nasty, but it's the typical generic "world will be engulfed by darkness with no mention of casualties or anything" that shows up in a lot of these kids' works.
I grant that it was kind of played like that in the original games too, but Darkrai still had a lot of personal villainy that was explicit and vile by the standards of an E-rated game. Mind Rape of kids, trying to trick the protagonists into suicide, manipulating all the misery in the main campaign, so on. Dusknoir? Trying to kill the heroes and some "darkness" stuff. Not seeing Dusknoir go above and beyond to the lengths necessary for the medium, even with his redeeming qualities excised.
You know Im honestly surprised by the stuff they managed to get away with doing in an E-rated game. Like only Sun and Moon competes with Mystery Dungeon for title of darkest game in the Pokemon franchise.
Edited by miraculous on Aug 9th 2018 at 3:04:51 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Yeah I was not a hundred percent sure. I just thought since Darkrai didn't exist in this thing the standard would naturally be lower. The self preservation is definitely not portrayed in a sympathetic way though, for certain. In the games I recall it being but not here.
Sorry about rushing the EP. as I said, tvtropes deleted my draft twice and I was realllllly fed up.
Edited by MahStache on Aug 9th 2018 at 11:32:33 AM
I have recently edited the Complete Monster entry in the The Dear Sweetie Belle Continuity YMMV page to better describe the actions of said example, and I was wondering if the entry on the Fan Works page can be changed to match.

Removing them from the MCU monster page is ridiculous. Especially when by that logic, we'd be getting rid of every Dragon Ball entry sans Babbidi and Demigra on the Dragon Ball monster page.