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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#126102: Aug 8th 2018 at 5:22:13 PM

[up][up] Lots. Bile's experiments, alone? Have been known to wipe out entire sectors. That is? Entire multiplanetary regions (the extermination of which was the crux of Kyras' master plan, the "LET THE GALAXY BURN" not withstanding which would give him a much larger body count).

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#126103: Aug 8th 2018 at 5:25:36 PM

If Cuu gets to stay than this mf definitely does too. A hearty "yea" for Kyras.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#126104: Aug 8th 2018 at 5:27:08 PM

Sure on Kyras. And goddamn the Warhammer 40k universe had a batshit insane heinous standard.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#126105: Aug 8th 2018 at 5:28:35 PM

[tup] to Kyras. From where I'm at Warhammer 40k is probably on par with like South Park for most f'd up heinous standard I've ever seen.

Edited by G-Editor on Aug 8th 2018 at 2:33:40 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#126107: Aug 8th 2018 at 5:33:43 PM

[tup] Chapter Master Azariah Kyras

(Kyras is easily a stand-out for a Khorne servant, but for the rest of the universe? I don't know)

Totally different Heinous Standards, but this reminds me to Colonel Killing from 0080 in Gundam. They might be so-so overall, but they are relatively weak due to being the Big Bad of a Spin-off.

Had few resources. Totally uses them.

Watch me destroying my country
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#126108: Aug 8th 2018 at 5:39:30 PM

Actually, and I know I'll be outvoted here, but I'm switching to abstain. Not because of heinousness issues, but because heaven knows what someone might be willing to do if trapped for centuries. Not enough to vote no, but, similar with Mothergod, not comfortable enough voting yes without knowing the work myself (and this isn't my type of game; gimme Space Marine).

EDIT: For heinous standards, Dragon Ball has to be up there.

Edited by ACW on Aug 8th 2018 at 8:50:09 AM

NTG Since: Aug, 2014
#126109: Aug 8th 2018 at 5:54:50 PM

Why should we use a different heinous standard for this game? It still takes place in the Warhammer 40K universe.

The serial killer from Shadownrun Return was down voted because he’s wasn’t heinous enough. Shouldn’t he get the same treatment and only be compared to the villains of the game?

Or what about Star Wars? There are a lot of games, I can play without the need to watch the movies beforehand. Does that mean, there’s should be a different heinous standard for them?

Sorry, If this comes off as overly aggressive, but same universe = same heinous standard no matter if it’s a book, movie, comic, game or a badly made Christmas special nobody wants to talk about.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#126110: Aug 8th 2018 at 6:14:51 PM

@ACW: Bile is responsible for billions at least, probably more. Abaddon's Black Crusades likely give him body counts in the trillions and Vect has that going for him as well.

Gonna snag the Birds of Prey film, btw. Yes to Kyras and Also? Okay, so I know I originally said he didn't count, BUT...I did more research. Now, in this Grimdark Future, there is one man, more responsible than any other for making it as grimdark as it is. I give you...Erebus.

Who is Erebus?

Erebus is the first Chaplain of the Word Bearers. So, the Word Bearers? They're kind of the most religious space marine sect. In fact, their chief world was a place of worship, particularly of the Emperor. This did not sit well with the Emperor himself, as he was a staunch atheist, hated the idea of worship in general, let alone of himself, and knew that any worship would indirectly feed the Chaos Gods...when he learned about this, he got the Word Bearers, and made them watch his forces raze their treasured city of Monarchia to ashes. Lorgar, the Primach of the Word Bearers was horrified and driven to grief and despair. All he had wanted was to please his father the Emperor and to worship him. He'd thought he was doing the right thing.

Enter...Erebus.Now, by this point? Erebus had secretly fallen to Chaos and saw his chance. Erebus had kept his corruption secret, but he became to communicate with the greatest of the Primarchs, horus Lupercal, the eldest of the Emperor's sons and the leader of the greatest legion, the Luna Wolves...now, they had discovered a new civilization: The Interex, an enlightened, peaceful one where they talked about what Chaos was to be better on guard against it. Erebus? Stole a sacred artifact of Chaos and presented it to a traitorous governor, leading to the governor wounding Horus, which led to his corruption by the four Chaos gods, and introduced Lorgar to gods who not only accepted his worship, but appreciated it. Through them? Chaos Undivided was born, the worship of all the Chaos lords together. Erebus manipulated events so the Imperium massacred and annihilated the Interex. Erebus corrupted Horus fully in the name of Chaos as a result...and the Horus Heresy began. All thanks to Erebus.

Erebus then helped Horus mastermind a purge of countless loyalist marines from the Traitor Legions as they fell to Chaos one by one, even masterminding the Isstvan V Drop Site massacre where all loyalist marines were exterminated. Oh, and he sent a frigging virus bomb onto the planet when one of the good guys thought he was a traitor.

Erebus functioned as Horus's right hand and adviser throughout the Heresy, spurring him on to actions that led to millions, billions and trillions dying as the Heresy raged, burning world after world. in one of his most infamous actions, Erebus personally summoned, at the Battle of Calth, the Ruinstorm that split the Imperium in two, leading to countless deaths from the cut off forces and unstable Warp Travel. Erebus also personally helped to finalize the Primarch of the World Eaters, Angron's transformation into a brutal Daemon Prince and murdered Argel Tal, the most humane of the Word Bearers for being too humane.

Erebus proceeded to hightail it far away from the World eaters when their top warrior tried to murder him for killing Argel Tal, and then? He tried to corrupt one of the most loyal Primarchs Sanguinius...to do this, he summoned a pair of Bloodthirsters, the strongest minions of the Chaos God of battle Khorne (BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD is his creed. All you need to know, huh?) He had an entire planetary system sacrificed to fuel them, intending on getting Sanguinius's legions corrupted by blood thirst (the Blood Angels there) and offer him the path of Chaos to save them. It failed, and Erebus mouthed off at Horus for screwing things up. Horus flayed the skin off his face for that one.

Eventually the Heresy ended in a titanic battle between Horus and the Emperor who, though mortally wounded, used the last of his power to defeat Horus. Freed of the Chaos gods and horrified at his evil deeds, Horus begged his father to slay him. The Emperor granted his wish, killing him mind, body and soul so they could never restore him...before he fell into a coma, interned on the Golden Throne to keep him alive. Erebus returned to Lorgar where he became a member of his Dark Council, scheming for ten thousand years. Most recently? He showed up at Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade and sacrificed millions of captives for Daemon summoning...he's still at large, with absolutely no comeuppance yet.

Heinousness?

You know what...I'm gonna say he passes. Erebus manipulated the slaughter of an innocent civilization. He wiped out a planetary system. He is architect of the massacre of countless loyalist Astartes. And more than that, he is the one responsible for everything. The corruption of Horus, the Horus Heresy, the war? Is all. On. Him. He is the one who guided all of it at Horus's side, inspiring and pushing the worst of all his evil deeds. So yeah, it's a high standard, but Erebus sticks out.

Mitigating Qualities?

No tragic backstory (unlike Angron and Lorgar). No agency problems (unlike Horus and Fulgrim). No sympathy whatsoever. Erebus turned to Chaos on his own and he is a horrible, horrible, horrible person. More than that? He's a slimy, power hungry little weasel and coward who'll sell anyone up the river and commit any number of evil deeds to get his way. There is nothing mitigating about him, and he's the one who did more than anything to corrupt the rest. Erebus was going to see countless, countless innocent beings in the galaxy slaughtered just for his own advancement.

Conclusion?

What say we? I have to say Erebus passes.

Edited by Lightysnake on Aug 8th 2018 at 6:23:27 AM

NTG Since: Aug, 2014
#126111: Aug 8th 2018 at 6:25:35 PM

Erebus get's a [tup].Impressive body count even by WH 40 K standards.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#126112: Aug 8th 2018 at 6:31:16 PM

[tup][tup] to Erebus. So the one who makes the universe a lot more grimdark and everything went wrong in Warhammer 40k universe is all on this guy huh? Interesting.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#126116: Aug 8th 2018 at 6:46:41 PM

So this guy is basically the Greater-Scope Villain of the entire setting, not to mention an expy of good old Honest Iago?

[tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup]

MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#126117: Aug 8th 2018 at 6:49:15 PM

[tup]Erebus

Garneaux's cm entry is in the wrong section, it should be in the live-action tv section, not films.

IPP Wick Check created.
Knack Since: Mar, 2018
#126118: Aug 8th 2018 at 7:15:28 PM

Yes to Kyras and Erebus. Intriguing though how for years there were two characters in the series who were determined to count (Abaddon and Fabius) and in about a week it is now five. (Including Vect) [lol] The heinous standard is tremendously high and there isn't any doubt about that but for what they do these five do count.

Edited by Knack on Aug 8th 2018 at 7:15:53 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#126119: Aug 8th 2018 at 7:16:02 PM

NTG: I think the medium can affect how we should consider it, but either way here? I think Kyras is clear. He's the worst follower of Khorne I can name now. Even Angron never gets this bad, and he's a Daemon Prince.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#126120: Aug 8th 2018 at 7:16:17 PM

[tup] Kyas and Erebus.

Edited by Beast on Aug 8th 2018 at 9:16:36 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Knack Since: Mar, 2018
#126121: Aug 8th 2018 at 7:17:54 PM

@NTG Yeah, even if you consider the heinous standard of the main series Kyras is evil even for a worshipper of Khorne.

Edited by Knack on Aug 8th 2018 at 7:21:45 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#126122: Aug 8th 2018 at 7:22:15 PM

That's my main sticking point even if we do consider the rest of the franchise. Point is, I'm struggling to name a single Khornite who plans for bloodshed on such a scale. Kyras doesn't even become a Greater Daemon until right before he dies and he's still unique among them.

Edited by Scraggle on Aug 8th 2018 at 10:01:56 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature

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