During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Just a note: I will take a stab on Kumo Desu Ga, Nani Ka? both anime and manga version for both CM and MB discussion dates (Given that I run the thread based on it). I'm interested on how this is going.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."Re-potholed entry:
- X-Men: Apocalypse: En Sabah Nur, better known as Apocalypse, is the world's first mutant, and once ruled Egypt as a tyrannical god-king. Awakening in modern times, he decides the world needs him to rule it once again and sets about recruiting new "Horsemen" by manipulating lost and despairing mutants. One of the Horsemen is Magneto, consumed by grief with the deaths of his wife and daughter. Apocalypse starts by killing the factory workers at Magneto's workplace and introduces his plans for the world, an attempt at kidnapping Professor Xavier resulting in the death of the X-Man Havoc. Apocalypse reveals his intention to possess Xavier, taking his mental powers so he can go into the minds of anyone on earth whenever he wants. He then proceeds to forcibly reshape a whole city into a massive pyramid and has Magneto alter the magnetic poles of the earth, causing widespread death and destruction. When his attempt to possess Xavier fails the first time, Apocalypse attempts to draw him out of hiding by throttling his foster sister Mystique and using her life as leverage. Dismissing even his own Horsemen as useless, especially if they fail him, Apocalypse's grand plans for the world are a way of elevating himself back to godhood, and he intends for everyone he deems "weak", mutant and human alike, to perish in the flames that create his new utopia.
EDIT: Come to think of it, I'll work on the whole tree. Shaw's over-potholed; Ajax needs to be changed to Vile Villain, Saccharine Show; Rice is over-potholed; Pierce needs the chainhole removed (and I'm not sure he needs to be nearly 290 words).
Edited by ACW on Aug 8th 2018 at 3:00:19 PM
Question: Would Vile Villain, Saccharine Show even WORK for Ajax? It's not like Deadpool is exactly saccharine.
I would say no. Honestly, I don't even think it's necessary to mention how "dark" he is. He really doesn't clash with the tone of Deadpool. Sure he's fairly serious but he doesn't significantly alter the tone of the film, the tone is pretty consistent. Deadpool is a dark comedy full of death, it's not exactly Care Bears. That it has a fairly serious villain doesn't seem noteworthy to me.
Edited by TommyFresh on Aug 8th 2018 at 1:50:26 AM
Yes to Mr. Davis.
@ACW The heinous standard is high but not that high, Bill has virtually unlimited power and abilities when he isn't prevented by specific things. Resources would be able to be an argument in the future it's safe to say. If there are future installments later on that is.
Edited by Knack on Aug 8th 2018 at 3:20:36 AM
It's a variety of issues I think that stop any of the monsters of the week from counting. Tonal inconsistencies, for starters — there's no question the Shapeshifter would count if he actually did anything, but people like Preston Northwest and Darlene are discounted partially on the basis of them being absolute jokes. Contrast Bill who's heinous enough and ended up played seriously when push comes to shove.
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Yeah. Bill is like Nyarlatothep. Highest ridiculous rapsheet but also ridiculously high amount of resources.
Preston is just so weird to think about. Like, easy candidate if he wasnt a comedic character.
...Uh
Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 8th 2018 at 5:25:14 AM
Watch me destroying my countryMore de-potholed X-Villains:
- X-Men: First Class: Klaus Schmidt, aka Sebastian Shaw, is a mutant supremacist who believes humans to be inferior to mutants. As a Nazi scientist, he used his position to try to find "gifted" mutants, and upon finding a younger Erik Lensherr, he killed his mother after Erik failed to impress him with his powers, solely to motivate him, before subjecting Erik to horrible experiments. After the war, he adopts the Shaw identity and ingratiates himself to high-ranking members of the government with his Hellfire Club, manipulating Russia and America alike. Shaw assaults a CIA facility, murdering every agent within, and when one of the young mutants stands up to him, Shaw, despite his creed of "not harming his own kind," murders him without hesitation and with barely-concealed enjoyment. Shaw's ultimate goal was to push Russia and America into nuclear war, allowing mutantkind to thrive in the aftermath and creating a kingdom of mutants that he himself would rule. Even when thwarted, Shaw planned to absorb all the nuclear radiation in his atomic sub and unleash it upon Cuba to destroy it personally and trigger atomic war.
- Deadpool (2016): Ajax, real name Francis Freeman, is the leader of an operation that purports to create superheroes. Francis uses his recruiter to lure in people with nothing to lose before he implants the potential for mutant genetics into them. However, to awaken the mutant gene, Francis subjects them to hideous, continuous torture to produce the necessary stress to awaken it. Wade Wilson himself is eventually placed in a chamber that alters air levels to always make him feel that he is asphyxiating. After this awakens Wade's mutant gene, Francis comments he could fix Wade's ruined looks, but mocks that would be no fun and shuts him back in the device anyways. When Wade escapes, Francis impales him and leaves him to burn alive in the ruins of the lab, along with any other prisoners remaining. The superhero operation is also revealed to be a front: the victims are fitted with collars to turn them into slaves and sold to the highest bidder for the remainder of their lives. When Wade, now Deadpool, is hunting him, Francis tries to lure him out by kidnapping his former girlfriend Vanessa and then locking her in the asphyxiation device right in front of Wade.
Edited by ACW on Aug 8th 2018 at 6:45:03 AM
So, while me and Ravok continue to work on Octopath's Big Bad, it's time for a new EP! I teased this one a bit back and I've been considering doing it for a long while. Let's get to it.
What's the setting?
The Dawn of War series is a licensed video game series set in the grimdark world of Warhammer 40K, which we've brought up numerous times here. Dawn of War? Focuses on a specific Chapter of the Space Marines, specifically the Blood Ravens headed by certified badass Captain Gabriel Angelos. Throughout the series and its many expansions? The Blood Ravens defuse numerous conflicts and unearth various horrible conspiracies, while eagerly slaughtering filthy xenos, destroying daemons, and purging any and all heretics from their ranks without quarter or mercy. Unfortunately, some of these heretics... have ambitions far wider than the simple worship of Chaos, and some of them go all the way up to the Chapter Master himself.
Our candidate? Azariah Kyras.
Who is Chapter Master Azariah Kyras? What has he done?
Azariah Kyras has a background shrouded in mystery. What is known are his acts of heroism, centuries before the main games... once a Librarian in the Blood Ravens who fought under his master Moriah, Kyras seemingly gave his life to stop the Great Unclean One, Ulkair. In truth? Kyras was tossed into the Warp and trapped in the space hulk called the Judgment of Carrion, where he remained for centuries. Eventually, Kyras came back... but he was different. Changed. Kyras' return was celebrated and he eventually became the Chapter Master of the Blood Ravens, with only Gabriel suspicious of Kyras.
In truth, as the Chaos Rising pack reveals? Kyras had actually surrendered himself to Chaos during his time in the Judgment of Carrion, making a pact of Ulkair to free himself from the Judgment of Carrion and convincing his battle-brother Gulan to do the same. Kyras, now a willing servant of Chaos, secretly allied with a daemon inadvertently released from the Maledictum and became a steadfast servant of Khorne, the Chaos God of blood and war. Through this deal, and through his manipulation and corruption of the Space Marines in the Blood Ravens? Kyras authors all of the misery of the first two games and their expansions over the next decade. The Tyranid incursion, the crusades of Araghast and Eliphas, all the billions and billions slain in the sub-sector of Aurelia? Kyras masterminds it to make Aurelia an eventual target for an Exterminatus fleet. All the while, Kyras corrupts and twists his own battle-brothers, breaking the minds of those he can't just convince into submission, while opening up Dawn of War II: Retribution by having all those he hasn't yet corrupted — including Gabriel Angelos — flagged as heretics and ordering them killed.
Kyras continues to work behind the scenes, convincing his battle-brothers to slaughter each other and working to foster more and more death and misery throughout Aurelia, playing everyone like pawns as Gabriel races to unearth his work (further impeded by Kyras' right-hand Diomedes, who is still fanatically loyal to Kyras even with the clear evidence of corruption). Eventually, Kyras orchestrates a massacre of Eldar preventing the Exterminatus fleet (worth noting in the Eldar campaign? Kyras tricks the Eldar into slaughtering their own while taunting them that another of their kind who vanished — Farseer Taldeer — was tortured and executed under his order, with her soulstone worn as a trophy) and openly reveals his true colors at last to Gabriel and Diomedes while they're on the planet of Typhon Primaris.
Kyras' true goal? All the misery he's fostered throughout the Aurelian sub-sector was to have all the billions on the numerous occupied planets annihilated through the Exterminatus... as a tribute to Khorne, a sacrifice large enough to let him ascend into a true Daemon. Kyras tries to win Diomedes over to his side while imploring him to slaughter his allies, but Diomedes turns on him. Undeterred, Kyras simply watches as the fleet arrives... utterly destroying Typhon Primaris and the millions of lives on it. Kyras muses on the planet's fate as he watches it consumed by the Exterminatus.
Eventually, on the ashes of Cyrene, Gabriel's long dead home planet, Kyras becomes a full-on Daemon with the Exterminatus arriving, with one of the single greatest villainous monologues ever spoken to compound his moment of triumph:
And what is this path? This meaning, this purpose to which we gather the skulls of our foes? It is nothing. There is no meaning, no purpose. We murder. We kill. It is mindless savagery, this universe is mindless! In mere hours, billions will die! Innocent! Guilty! Strong and weak! Honest and deceitful! All of them! They will scream, they will burn, and for no purpose but that mighty Khorne may revel in their bloodshed! And united in this void of purpose, fear, or duty... we shall at long last be free!
Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!
LET THE GALAXY BUUUURN!
With this? The "man reflects the monster," as it is said, as Kyras prepares to annihilate everything standing in the way of the rest of his ascension, preparing to burn the entire sub-sector before continuing to slaughter the entire galaxy and all within in the name of Khorne. Kyras smashes Gabriel Angelos into a bloody pulp, mocking him and the Emperor who's "soul has been picked clean" all the while. Eventually, after a long, grueling battle, regardless of which faction you're playing as? Kyras is finally slain, his head burst asunder and the rest of his daemonic body plunged into the pit he's erupted from to burn... and Gabriel, provided you're playing as the Space Marines? Becomes the Chapter Master in his stead as the leader the Blood Ravens deserve.
Any mitigating factors?
With Kyras? I'd say no. I'd be more hesitant to bring him up given the whole "corrupted by Chaos after spending centuries in the Warp" thing except Kyras makes it explicit he willingly turns to Chaos as part of his bargain, to stay alive and to embrace a path to "freedom" through the slaughter of countless billions. Literally all you need to know about his overall character, if his speech didn't give it away? Summed up here as he watches Typhon Primaris burn: "It must be magnificent. To hear a planet writhe and scream. To feel it convulse beneath your own feet. Witness it dying with living eyes. Perhaps I may share this gift with every last living soul in the galaxy... Until then..."
Now, the heinous standard? Kyras clears it for his own game — a side-game or not, this is still Warhammer and there's nastiness all around (we've got Orks, the Eldar, daemon princes like Sindri, Eliphas and Araghast with huge body counts in their own rights, Abaddon in the background... even Gabriel Angelos was forced to destroy his own home planet) but essentially all of the major players in the first two games? Dance to Kyras' tune. Kyras has insurmountable billions of bodies on his hands with an end goal that trumps all of them in sheer scale and death for no greater purpose than taking power for himself and serving Khorne.
Now, this is the 40K universe... where tremendous acts of bloodshed on gigantic scales is daily (Kyras is easily a stand-out for a Khorne servant, but for the rest of the universe? I don't know), but like Lijah Cuu in Gaunt's Ghosts who keeps in his own series with just a few petty acts of murder and rape? I talked to Lighty about this one for a while, and I think we're mostly alright treating Dawn of War as its own thing. Dawn of War is a part of the overall universe, but it's still distinct from the tabletop games, can be picked up entirely separate of them, and has its own in-universe heinous standard which Kyras sets. So? I'm alright passing him here.
Conclusion?
It took a lot of consideration weighing Kyras on 40K's overall scale, but Dawn of War? Is enough its own thing I think we can weigh Kyras by its own standard. And by God, on that standard? Kyras passes. Easily.
Thoughts?
Edited by Scraggle on Aug 8th 2018 at 6:06:23 AM
I'll allow it, given that we have precedent for Cuu.
But my God, I know the 40K standard is super high, but would "billions and billions" not be enough? Just how many have Abaddon, Bile, and that Dark Eldar (whose name escapes me) each killed??
Honestly though, being trapped for CENTURIES in the Warp might make a person desperate, although it seems like this is one of those cases where it's a completely different person. It makes me wary, but I'll still give a slight yes.
Edited by ACW on Aug 8th 2018 at 8:17:09 AM

Yes to Mr. Davis
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread