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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#124801: Jul 23rd 2018 at 3:39:06 PM

To be fair, I think about two-thirds of those were mine. That was way back when my writeups were still godawful and I hadn't yet developed my allergy to the color blue.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#124802: Jul 23rd 2018 at 3:46:45 PM

That's possible too. I know I DID use to be just TERRIBLE with them (look at Xenia Onatopp's old entry) [lol]

Edited by ACW on Jul 23rd 2018 at 6:47:09 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#124804: Jul 23rd 2018 at 4:15:51 PM

I actually like them too, but the majority don't, which is why I try to follow the 5-8-10 rule (maximum potholes: 5 for <200 words, 8 for 200-250, 10 for over 250).

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#124805: Jul 23rd 2018 at 4:31:03 PM

Yes to Flesher and Scraggs, I'm with you on the potholes... 99% of the time, reading the entry's text will let you figure out the trope could apply and while I get leaving wiki words unpotholed looks awkward or occasionally they can enhance the reading experience, I find they usually just dumb the entry down like the reader can't figure out the description being covered by the trope without it.

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#124807: Jul 23rd 2018 at 4:43:35 PM

Would this do for a quote for Fenrir Greyback?

I wouldn't want to miss a trip to Hogwarts, Dumbledore, not when there are throats to be ripped out ... delicious, delicious...

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
MenInGreyToBlak V Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
V
#124808: Jul 23rd 2018 at 5:24:12 PM

[up] That's excellent.

I love potholes. I just love potholes.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#124809: Jul 23rd 2018 at 6:24:35 PM

Yes to Flesher and Morte.

Anyway, I have a candidate from a very old Superman property, the Adventures of Superman show from the 1950s. A little note here, this show features none of Superman rogues (this show was made before Brainiac even existed) the first season featured more crime noir stories while the later seasons went into more zany sci fi antics. Of course I am going to propose a villain from the first season:

Who is Lou Cranek? What has he done?

Lou Cranek (Big Bad of the episode The Mind Machine) is a major crime boss who is being investigated by a Senate Sub Committee for his illegal activities. Cranek kidnaps a scientist named Dr. Edward Stanton who create a machine designed to use hypnosis to treat people mental illness. Cranek wants to turn this device into a mind control machine, to force anyone who is going to testify against him to recant and forces Stanton by knife point to comply. Cranek forces Stanton to use this device on his former accountant who is about testify against him, making him change his testimony.

The accountant then goes insane, hijacks a school bus and almost drives it off a cliff, with 3 school children on board. Superman saves the children, but the accountant is dead, the machine ultimately destroyed his mind. Cranek uses this device against two other witnesses, prevent them from testifying and killing them in the process. When Stanton confronts Cranek over these deaths, Cranek says he does not care and intents to continue to use this device to stay out of jail by killing anyone who testifies him against him, with the next person to testify being Lois Lane. Stanton refuses to help, but Cranek says he has seen Stanton use the machine enough to know who it works and intents to take care of Stanton after he silences Lois. Luckily Stanton's assistant is able to help Clark locate Stanton's machine, Superman arrives, defeats Cranek and saves Lois from the mind machine.

Is he heinous by the standards of the work?

Okay so this is a show from the 50s, due to budget and tech limitations they generally did not have very destructive villains (heck Superman could only show up in the last act). A lot of villains were petty criminals, with sometimes a murder or 2 under their belts. I think Cranek killing 3 people, trying to kill Lois, planning to kill Stanton and willing to endanger civilians is pretty nasty. Also Cranek may not have intended to endanger those children, but given how he killed 3 people without a second thought, I doubt he cared, especially when Stanton warned about dangerous his use of the machine was at the beginning of the episode. The machine can only effect one person at a time and has a range of 25 miles, so I think his actions in this episode match his resources.

Any Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?

Nah.

Final Verdict?

I would lean towards keeping this guy.

Edited by Overlord on Jul 23rd 2018 at 7:17:04 AM

MorganRayHess Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#124810: Jul 23rd 2018 at 6:43:26 PM

I cannot find any source that clarifies this: is there any way for the player character of a game with a karma meter to qualify as this?

"Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." -Mahatma Gandhi
MenInGreyToBlak V Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
MorganRayHess Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#124813: Jul 23rd 2018 at 6:55:13 PM

What I mean is: if you are playing a video game, and it has a moral choice system (such as Bioshock or Star Wars Ko TOR), and you take the very most monstrous route possible, causing the character to meet all the requirements (heinous, no positive traits, defined motives), could the Player Character THEN qualify as a CM?

"Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." -Mahatma Gandhi
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#124816: Jul 23rd 2018 at 7:08:36 PM

Yes to Lou, and no, a PC cannot qualify that way. No "you in KOTOR" or "you in Baldur's Gate." Unless a PC is forced into such by the narrative (IE: Hatred), can't work

MorganRayHess Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#124817: Jul 23rd 2018 at 7:09:57 PM

What's the reasoning behind this?

"Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." -Mahatma Gandhi
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#124818: Jul 23rd 2018 at 7:13:22 PM

Because it's not a defined character and lacks the requisite basis for this trope. It's a malleable cipher for a player.

MorganRayHess Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#124819: Jul 23rd 2018 at 7:16:40 PM

As a hypothetical situation: if there were a canonical sequel work that is based on the premise of "the PC in the previous game went down the very worst possible route", would they then qualify? If so, only in the latter, or in both works retroactively?

"Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." -Mahatma Gandhi
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#124820: Jul 23rd 2018 at 7:19:51 PM

Likely not, as there's that requisite characterization issue again.

MorganRayHess Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#124821: Jul 23rd 2018 at 7:20:40 PM

Alright, thanks for clearing that up.

"Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." -Mahatma Gandhi
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#124822: Jul 23rd 2018 at 7:24:57 PM

[tup] Flesher and Cranek. Abstain on Morte.

[up][up][up] I would say no, even if a character is on an evil route nothing says they have to be played 100% evil. Most games with moral choices will still let the PC Pet the Dog if they want to. Even if the sequel assumes they are evil they can't really confirm they always made the most evil choice.

Edited by TommyFresh on Jul 23rd 2018 at 7:25:01 AM

MorganRayHess Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#124823: Jul 23rd 2018 at 7:27:58 PM

What if ever NOT taking the worst possible action and/or petting the dog in any way straight-up prevents the ending that the sequel picks up from ever happening? In other words, a villainous 100% completion in which any good or even merely halfheartedly evil action renders the worst ending unwinnable?

Edited by MorganRayHess on Jul 23rd 2018 at 8:29:34 AM

"Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." -Mahatma Gandhi
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#124824: Jul 23rd 2018 at 7:38:16 PM

Maybe? I don't think there has ever been an example of a sequel with those conditions and the chances of such a case seem very, very unlikely to me.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#124825: Jul 23rd 2018 at 7:39:25 PM

Do you actually have an example?


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