During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Asmodeus.
Also I was thinking of reading some Marvel Ultimate comics to see if I can find anyone else who might qualify. I know there used to be a few, but they were cut for various . Anyone got any suggestions.
Edited by Bullman on Jul 7th 2018 at 11:34:50 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadHere goes another KR proposal.
What is the work? Paradise Lost is a movie adaptation of Kamen Rider 555, set in an alternate universe where the human race is near extinct and Smart Brain has gained total control over the earth. The story follows the Human Liberation Army, as they confront the Orphnochs with the help of Kamen Rider Faiz, Takumi Inui. Smart Brain's own paramilitary organization is the Riotroopers, and our candidate is their leader, Leo.
Who is Leo? Leo, introduced in the light novel Lost World and acting as The Heavy in Paradise Lost, is the english-speaking Lion Orphnoch and the real identity of Kamen Rider Psyga. A man of few words, Leo is an arrogant Sociopathic Soldier and Blood Knight who sees battle as a "game", Leo got the Psyga Gear by finding an extremely injured Muramaki, his Affably Evil superior, and demanding one of the "Emperor Belts", or else he would leave him to die. Under personal supervision, Leo, driven solely by his lust for power and hatred for humans, led the Riotroopers in cowardly attacks against human camps, massacring countless innocent people. Summoned by Murakami, Leo is introduced murdering three Orphnochs to show just how strong he is.
Leading and participating in an attack against the Human Liberation Army, Leo and the Riotroopers claimed the lives of several civilians and injured the survivors of the massacre, personally killing the Anti-Hero Masato Kusaka/Kamen Rider Kaixa by penetrating the man's heart with his finger, mocking him for being "only human", and gleefully telling three heroic Orphnochs that he is happy to see them, because "taking care of all of you is also part of my job". Later, Leo returns to the Human Liberation Army's base, and though his job was to kidnap Mari, Leo took the opportunity to bomb the place. Arriving at Smart Brain with Mari, Leo tried to stop Takumi from saving her from being devoured by a giant creature, but was sliced in half by his blade and had his gear destroyed, turning him into dust.
Freudian Excuses? None at all.
Heinous? Like said before, this is an alternate timeline, so we don't have the keepers Kitazaki and Minami. Being the movie's primary threat, Leo certainly stood out from the rest despite his limited on-screen appearances, directly participating in massacres, with the heavy implication that he commanded the genocidal campaign that greatly reduced the Japanese population.
Conclusion? I'd give him a
Leo
Now. I was thinking on this guy and after a while...yeah, he is actually a uber easy candidate. I really was misunderstanding what were mitigating traits.
I actually read this years ago, but I remembered it after finding my copy of Jokers Wild (the vol that feautures him as The Big Bad) when I was cleaning my room.
Setting?
Wild Cards is a series of science fiction superhero shared universe anthologies, mosaic novels, and solo novels written by a collection of more than thirty authors referred to as the Wild Cards Trust and edited by George R. R. Martin and co-edited by Melinda M. Snodgrass.
Set largely during an alternate history of post-World War II United States, the series follows humans who contracted the Wild Card virus, an alien virus that rewrites DNA and mutates survivors; those who acquire minor or crippling physical conditions are known as Jokers, and those who acquire superhuman abilities are known as Aces.
Who is the Astronomer
The Big Bad of the first trilogy of novels, the Astronomer is an insanely powerful Evil Sorcerer that is also the leader of his own dark cult. As our own character sheet says, He is a bad guy's bad guy. Just count the number of "evil" tropes.
The Leader of a cult known as the Egyptian Freemasons, the Astronomer planned to conquer the world in the aftermath of an invasion by the alien Swarm. A Evil expy of characters like Charles Xavier, the Astronomer stands out as the most unambiguous baddie of the early story.
What he had done?
The Astronomer was one of the many humans that got infected for the Titular Wild Card virus, becoming an Ace (powers without deformities) with Psychic Powers and losing all memories from his former life.
The Astronomer made his first appearance in the 1960s, coming before the Egyptian Freemasons after discovering the Eldritch Abomination Swarm Mother approaching Earth. Marc Balsam, the Mason's leader, determined that the description matched that of TIAMAT, the entity that had been the cornerstone of the Mason's foundation since the group's inception. This revelation saw the Astronomer quickly drawn deep into the Masons and he soon attained a prominent position within their ranks.
The Astronomer's quest for power had him manipulate events to his advantage when in 1979 Fortunato destroyed the Mason's temple in retaliation for a woman that the Astronomer had mind-wiped. The Astronomer led a few loyal followers away from the incident, while leaving Balsam die in the doomed building, thus sealing his leadership of the group. He thought that he could use the Shakti Device to defeat TIAMAT, and the world would come to him in gratitude for delivering them from this evil, and with that goal in mind began to mastermind his own criminal empire.
By May 1986, the Astronomer had killed a number of people to fuel his power, and this again drew Anti-Hero pimp Fortunato's attention when one of the slain women turned out to be one of Fortunato's geishas. His years of planning had nearly come to fruition when the Swarm invaded, but when Fortunato discovered his location his plans were dashed. Fortunato led a violent raid against the Cloisters slums, effectively snuffing out the Egyptian Freemasons in one swift blow. The Astronomer survived the attack and vowed revenge against all who participated in Fortunato's raid. He then began to reassemble other survivors from the group.
In the third novel. The Astronomer took his revenge on the 40th anniversary of the Mass Super-Empowering Event Wild Card Day. His plan was to kill all the aces who participated in the Cloisters raid and to steal Human Alien Dr. Tachyon's ship. His plan had some partial success; using Roulette, an Ace with the power of kill people with sex, the Astronomer caused the deaths of Howler, was close to doing the same with the Dr. Tachyon and he personally dismembered young-teenager Kid Dinosaur in front of his father and the general public. Some other Masons shot down the Turtle, a famous superhero, but The Astronomer failed to kill Water Lily at Aces High. To get revenge at Fortunato for stopping him, he kidnapped three women he believed to be the pimp's geishas, intent on sacrificing them to recharge his power. This plan fell into disarray when one of them, Cordelia Chaisson, turned out to be a latent ace. She fought back and escaped.
The Astronomer then ambushed a powered-up Fortunato. Both he and Fortunato took to the sky in a final pyrotechnic exchange, which the Astronomer ultimately lost. Drained of most of his energy he fell into the East River. Fortunato let him go, guilt ridden after having learned from the Astronomer's unshielded mind that he had planned to save the planet from the Swarm and thus, by having stopping him, Fortunato was responsible of the infamous Swarm War.
Then The Dragon Demise, an Ace with the power of kill people with his gaze, found him then as he dragged himself out of the river and turned on his former master. Using the last of his strength, the Astronomer attempted to phase through a wall. At the last second however, he locked eyes with Demise and died halfway phased in the wall.
Redeeming Traits?
None at all.
He is just an egocentric megalomaniac. His plan to use the Shakti device to stop TIAMAT/The Swarm Mother and save the world was less due to him being well intentioned and more to wanting be worshipped as the savior of humanity.
His powers are based on rituals, especially sexual and lethal ones so he cheerfully activates them by raping and/or murdering his (mostly female) victims. Contrast with Anti-Hero Fortunate who also does have mystic sex powers (ugh, I hate typing that), who does activate his powers with consensual sex (Sure, Fortunato is an attractive Pimp so he does have it easier but still). There no “I hate doing this” here, The Astronomer love it. His memory of his unknown old life was erased, but at his final fight with Fortunato, the magical pimp is able to sense his mind and discover that the memory delete was actually self-inflicted for unknown reasons. At the end, The Astronomer is evil because he wants to be evil.
Heck. His powers are like that because he wants it. The powers in Wild Cards are Personality Powers, so if his powers need such a awful thing to work...is because he always wanted it. The Astronomer know that he is not using magic but rather just focusing his Psychic Powers...and he loves it.
Heinous Standard?
Having murdering several women in depraved rituals and then plotting a revenge plan that turns him into the original Hero Killer of the series. Yeah, the Astronomer pass it quite easily.
His murders are by far some of the most depraved of the series and he commits them in mass scale. Nothing bad for a man with a small cult. Even his right hand, a mercenary that kills people for being annoying, considerate him disgusting.
There other villains that are able to do more evil, but they have more resources (Or different ones such as being a politician leading a mob rather than a hidden cult). And more importantly, most of the acts that out-heinous the Astronomer are done books after him.
Our protagonists are mostly jerks, but The Astronomer is a cultist Serial Killer of woman.
Veredict?
Easy
. I don't get why I thought that he didnt counted? It probably was the memory wipe, but given that 1) We don't know how he was before it and 2) It was likely self inflicted, that is not redeeming at all.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 7th 2018 at 2:54:39 PM
Watch me destroying my country
Leo and Astronomer
Well even if Mariah doesn’t count as a CM she definitely manages to out heinous Diamondback
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff![]()
![]()
So far only Four books were translated to spanish (beign Hispanic is suffering if you are a fan of foreign media except animation -because they get fansubs quite easily-). So, I cant be sure if they count or not but, so far...
Blaise, the Bastard Bastard Grandson of the Dr. Tachyon seems like a really awful monster. Being basically Space!Joffrey and Mackie Messer/Mack the Knife, A Psycho for Hire that serves as The Dragon for a Corrupt Politician and Ti Malice
Eh. I could only read the first three novels. The other CM candidate all are in currently untranslated novels, so you still have a chance Snake of Light.
Also, in Mack character sheet page...
Not related to this trope. But I wanna edit it, several Marxists have actually a very good tendency to be bigoted. I think that I should but dunno, opinions?
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 7th 2018 at 3:15:58 AM
Watch me destroying my country
Leo.
EDIT:
Astronomer as well, for now at least unless someone out-heinousess him later for his level (him being in an early book would, to me at least, be more of a Mercenary Tao situation than a Hans Gruber one).
Just cut that part about him being a Marxist. It's not like, say, Castro's Cuba was pro-gay-rights.
Edited by ACW on Jul 7th 2018 at 4:19:25 AM
Thanks to Very Vile Villain for reminding me of this one...
Game of Thrones from 2012 is an RPG set in the world of the series, developed by Cyanide entertainment. The game? Takes place concurrently with season 1 of the show and the heroes are Ser Alester Sarwyck, the heir to a house sworn to House Lannister, as well as Mors Westford; a skinchanger and former knight sword to House Lannister who defied Lord Tywin Lannister's order to murder Princess Elia Targaryen and her two children. Mors, realizing the danger this put his family in, sent his wife and daughter into hiding and was sent to the Night's Watch....Alester had fled to Essos at the end of the Rebellion and has become a Red Priest in service to the god R'hllor. Alester returns when his father is dead, his brother is suspected of doing the deed.
Now, Mors and Alester's paths collide and the man behind the evil deeds? Valarr Hill.
Who is Valarr Hill?
Valarr Hill, or Valarr Sarwyck is the bastard brother of Alester and the son of Lord Sarwyck. Ambitious, ruthless and greedy, Valar is more of a yes-man to the Lannisters, but an unspecified event sent him packing from House Sarwyck, where he has become a member of Queen Cersei's personal guard. Now, Valarr covets Riverspring, the holdings of the Sarwyck family, and devises a scheme to obtain it. To that end, he poisons his own father and frames his half brother Gawen, having Gawen hunted and murdered by the City Watch commander, the corrupt Janos Slynt. Valarr also participares in the orders to murder the bastards of Robert Baratheon, attempting to devise the murder of a woman named Jeyne....Mors is sent south under cover of recruiter when things reach the Lord commander of the Night Watch, Jeor Mormont. Jeor orders Mors to protect Jeyne and bring Valarr to justice...see, it turns out? Jeyne is pregnant with the child of King Robert Baratheon....and what's more, she's a bastard descendant of House Targaryen, with a lord having conspired to give her as a prostitute to Robert to raise her child as a symbol to restore House Targaryen.
Valarr is just gleeful to kill whoever is in the way, carving a bloody swath through any obstacles. He's also a torturer of prisoners, brutally tormenting who is in the dungeon and torturing Mors when he's apprehended. finally, Alester breaks Mors out of the dungeon, revealing the two to be old friend. They rush to Riverspring to find Valarr seizing the lordship by forcing his own half sister to marry him where he taunts Alester about what he's going to do to her on the wedding night. Mors challenges Valarr to trial by combat, where Valarr reveals he is the man who hunted down and murdered Mors' wife and daughter, mocking him about it...Mors defeats Valarr, but Valarr summons a shadow wraith using dark sorcery and treacherously murders Mors, while threatening to put all of Riverspring to the sword. He has every witness massacred brutally, and has Riverspring put to the sword. Alester is held by Valarr's men, as Valarr threatens their sister Elyana for Jeyne's location...and promptly kills Elyana anyways, sneering he's going to deliver Jeyne to the Queen.
Alester does get free and finds Mors' body, kissing him in a last rite, but the magic of R'hllor restores Mors to life. Valarr attacks Jeyne's patron, Lord Harlton and kills him with his shadow magic, massacring his castle and finding Jeyne who's in labor. Jeyne, having already given birth, tricks Valarr into murdering her, hoping it'll cover up her chid's location. Alester and Mors fight their way in, using a Valyrian steel sword to defeat Valarr's shadow wraiths. Valarr is defeated in the throne room itself and stumbles back onto the Iron Throne, mocking Mors about his dead family...but reveals something Alester left out: Alester was sent with him by Tywin to do the deed. But while Alester felt horrible about it, Valarr? Was just eager. Alester regretfully killed Mors' wife as quick as he could...but Valarr raped Mors daughter in the house before murdering her, laughing after that he hadn't expected his duty to be as enjoyable as that, before an enraged Alester slashed Valarr's face and fled to Essos. As Valarr mocks them about it, a furious Mors stabs his sword into Valarr's throat and watches him die choking on his old blood...before Mors forces Alester to duel him with four endings that are bittersweet at best
Heinous standard?
So, for the game,. Valarr is the only main villain and easily breaches it. And frankly, even for Game of Thrones, given he's only a guardsman, I think he easily passes it as well. Valarr is a rapist, a mass murderer, a kinslayer, a breaker of every sacred taboo imaginable (Including guest right!) all for the sake of his own ambition, and his bodycount and cruelty exceeds even guys like Karl Tanner or Gregor Clegane.
Mitigating Qualities?
Zilch. Valarr is Bastard Bastard defined. You have to look at Ramsay Bolton to get a more evil one than him. Even his attempts at 'only following orders' fall hollow as Valarr is a gleeful sadist and goes out of his way to be as nasty about his orders as possible...which are just a means to an end to rise to further heights. He cares for nothing and nobody except himself.
Conclusion?
What say?
![]()
Yeah, we actually have another CM from him.
I just looked it up; he was already 48 when the first book came out.
Edited by ACW on Jul 7th 2018 at 4:56:09 AM
Leo.
Astronomer.
Valaar.
Speaking of Skin Trade, there's actually more than one book by that title. You know how I know, when I asked for it around Christmas time, my mom got me the one not written by GRR Martin, but the one about vampires.
Edited by Beast on Jul 7th 2018 at 2:10:14 AM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."

...I am interested on that. Is Episodic or anything? Not sure if I am gonna watch it, but sounds interesting.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 7th 2018 at 12:51:29 PM
Watch me destroying my country