During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Regardless of how genuine he is in his beliefs, he's clearly a sadist with enough sanity to know what he's doing is wrong and still loving it. At best a weird Knight Templar and worst a Straw Hypocrite riding off their philosophy to get off. Not seeing a reason to say no.
I think there has been at least one version of Pinhead to count.
Aside from the Stalker, i'll be exploring the comics to see if more people count. I believed that no one else from the movies could qualify, but thanks to therealjackieboy i might have to check out the most recent movie, Hellraiser: Judgement.
edited 20th Jun '18 7:48:20 PM by TheMadCr0w
So here's a effortpost I've been sitting on, although I think it may have come at an awkward time. I previously got permission from MenInGreyToBlak when I brought this up, and still got some contemplating on wether or not I should revisit a few candidates.
You guys should be familiar enough with The Walking Dead, be it the comics, the show or Tell Tales adaptation. That's the storyline I have been following in the franchise and like other Tell Tale games is an episodic adventure with "seasons" coming out every few years or so. The games primary focus is on Clementine as she grows from an innocent child caught up in the Zombie Apocalypse to the badass Mama Bear she is currently.
The third season is subtitled A New Frontier which focuses on Javier "Javi" Garcia as he tries to take care of his thought dead brother David's children and second wife in this new world. A early teenage Clementine ends up becoming a companion and the Supporting Protagonist. The titular New Frontier is a massive safe zone and settlement where Clementine was previously exiled from and separated from her adopted son AJ. It turns out Javi's brother David is one of the leaders of the New Frontier and it also turns out the New Frontier has been attacking other communities for supplies.
Which leads us to today's candidate, Joan.
Who is Joan ?
Joan is one of four leaders of the New Frontier, along with Clint, Dr. Lingard and the above mentioned David, and together they run the city of Richmond. Outwardly she's a reasonable, and wise leader of the community and matronly old lady. In actuality she is a shadow dictator, and wants to run the New Frontier for her own gain. See the community has fallen under hard times after a harsh winter, but they seem to be getting by with what they got, so long as people follow their rules for which the punishment is...exile. Joan meanwhile is later revealed to be the cold hearted mastermind behind rouge raiders by the New Frontier. On her orders, they go about raiding other communities/safe zones/settlements, killing or trying to kill those that stand in their way. These raids range from basic shooting and/or bombing the places up, to setting zombies they gathered loose in the communities, wiping these settlements out and leaving them to be pillaged.
What Does She Do ?
In the first two episodes, Javi has been taking his niece Mariana, nephew Gabe and his brothers ex-wife Kate across the country on the run from a massive hoard of zombies dubbed "The Herd". They also have run ins with these raiders as well, with one of them named Badger murdering Mariana (an early teenage/preteen girl). We later witness these raiders again when Javi spends time in a settlement called "Prescott" shortly after he meets Clementine. The town save for Javi and his family and new friends are wiped out despite attempting to fight off the attack when the raiders set the zombies loose.
We properly meet Joan and the rest of the New Frontier leaders when Javi is eventually reunited with David. When the leaders council are first met, one of the raiders, Max recognizes Javi and accuses him of stealing supplies and killing their people. Joan has Javi and his group exiled, but David later joins them to investigate a warehouse guarded by the raiders. In there we see they have stockpiled supplies from the communities they have raided and wiped out. David says that he didn't know about the raids, and that the New Frontier was only supposed to take what they can to get by. A lot of the supplies they don't actually need. Javi and co witness the raiders talking about Joan's orders and Mariana's murder. After a fight ensues, Badger is killed in retaliation for Mariana's murder and Max can potentially be killed or taken in alive. If Max is killed; Javi and David return to the Council to confront and expose Joan, but things go awry as their witness is dead and Joan is able to turn the tables and accuse David of the "raids" and has both him and Javi locked up. If Max is spared; Javi and David make their accusation, and Max backs them up. Joan confesses to the deed but goes on to make a speech about what she's doing is necessary and giving David a sarcastic apology over Mariana's death when she learns of it. She then has David and Javi locked up for working against her.
The next episode has her sentencing David to death for his "crimes" and is preparing to make a big show of it with a public execution. Javi manages to escape and gather who and what he can so that he and his allies can make their escape. Joan is finally confronted during the climax of this episode as she prepares to execute David by hanging. Joan calls out Javi accusing him of the problems the New Frontier are facing, including the deaths of their members (basically using those killed by the player as "murder charges"). Joan then reveals she has taken Javi's friend Tripp and David's friend Ava hostage. She will force Javi to choose who to save, forces him to decide quicker by having Gabe and Clementine taken hostage as well and whoever the player choses, Joan will have them executed. At this point fellow council member Clint has enough of Joan, especially with her declaration she can do whatever she wants, and calls off the execution.
Clint proposes they use the usual means of punishment in Richmond and just exile David, Javi and their people and the only reason Joan entertains the idea is because the Herd are literally outside the city walls. The player can either accept the deal, or shoot Joan in the face, killing her instantly. Either way, things go south and a firefight ensues with Javi freeing David. In the chaos, part of the wall explodes, allowing the Herd to run smoke in Richmond. If you take Clint's deal, Joan is alst seen fleeing in the chaos with David chasing after her but her ultimate fate is unknown. If Joan is killed...then she's dead. The last episode of the season focuses on Javi and his allies fighting to save Richmond from the Herd and working out the issues he has with David, while potentially loosing allies in the process. Either way, the city ends up being saved and it's implied Javi will step up to be its new leader, while Clementine continues her search for AJ learning that he was taken to another safe zone.
Redeeming Qualities or Freudian Excuse ?
At first Joan appears as this wise, reasonable and orderly woman who is looking out for her town - even uses this claim for a lot of her hot air. But there's six words from her that pretty much cement her true personality; "I can do anything I want!"
See if her crimes are exposed it's clear she feels no remorse or empathy for the chaos she caused and the innocent people she got killed with her community raids. When Mariana's death is brought up to her, all she gives is a sarcastic apology. She claims that her reason for doing what she's doing is for Richmond's own good, in the name of justice, order and the benefit of Richmond, and that she's taking supplies due to a loss they went through during the winter.
The further Joan is explored as a villain however, it becomes incredibly obvious that this are just platitudes she's using to save face and get people on her side, and she's a megalomaniac on a power trip. It's clear the other characters, including the other leaders see her as cruel and power mad, with one of them actually wanting to die because he can't live with what Joan has done/is doing. Joan doesn't show any actual care for those under her, beyond manipulating others and exploiting the deaths the player caused as "murders" (mainly the mooks killed during her raids, and the aforementioned leader who asks Javi to help him commit suicide).
In addition to this, Joan's raids are not part of the New Frontier's plans and her methods are certainly not part of their laws. It's established that they usually just salvage for what they need and if anyone breaks their rules, they are exiled as opposed to being executed. Joan goes behind the other leaders back to wipe out communities, steal and hoard things that the New Frontier doesn't even need so she can play shadow dictator (and goes full blown dictator when she's exposed). We also see in addition to being power mad she is also a sadist, as she demonstrates by forcing Javi to choose between saving one friend, and killing said friend out of spite.
Heinous Standard
The world of The Walking Dead is not a happy one as we can imagine. And we see through the franchise, examples of humanity becoming worse as the world does and this game is no exception. Besides a cannibal family in the first season, a "safe zone" that has extreme Social Darwinist views in killing children, the elderly and the sick, the CM of the games so far is William Carver. Carver was a despotic leader of a small community that believes in culling the weak and has multiple tortures, murders and even a rape to his name. So yeah a bad egg.
Joan runs a larger operation of course, helping run a larger city and has an bigger army to boot. I think what pushes her into the heinous section is she devotes these recourses to wiping out other communities for their supplies, even with the use of setting zombies loose in the safe zones. And as explained above is a spiteful murderer herself.
My only setback is that if the player doesn't kill her, her fate is up in the air and unaccounted for. Also the next and final season is coming soon, which leaves the possibility that she might make a return. Although her possible survival and potential escape isn't exactly a cliffhanger, it does leave a jarring loose end that I think might be revisited if she's still alive in some players stories.
edited 20th Jun '18 8:22:29 PM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."All right, so Joan never really stuck out to me—not as much as Carver, anyway. All that being said, kinda didn't really pay all that much close attention to her character and her overall schemes; I don't recall Joan being responsible for all of this...….but I can't deny it either, because I haven't bought Season 3; I only saw John Wolfe play it on You Tube.
She's not worse than Carver, but she's virtually just as bad as him. So on that note, I'll give her an
I suppose. I could go back and rewatch Wolfe play Season 3, but I do not care about this season or the characters at all (except Mari and Clem, and Javi somewhat) so I'm not gonna bother. If anyone else has more concrete knowledge about the season, chime in. I'm a bit sketchy on some details.
Joan. Two more characters from the Hellraiser comics, i'm reading them to find more potential candidates, a big portion of them have genuine excuses: For example, a wannabe Serial Killer was tortured by his mother as a child, she repeatedly forced him to cut his own torso with a razor, that's a damn good excuse to become a murderer if you ask me. In contrast, these two characters are polar opposites, but pure evil.
Who is Arturo Velez? Arturo Velez is a corrupt South American warden working in a prison that lost its real name many years ago, the population nicknamed this place "La Enfermidad", translating to "The Sickness". Obsessed with order, Velez used his intelligence to become the Jefe of La Enfermidad, abusing his position to turn the prison into a "strictly-modeled version of Hell, created on Earth, by one man", ruling the prison with a power over life and death. Hunting for revolutionaries, Velez captured them and ordered numerous unnecessary executions that resulted in La Enfermidad being investigated by international forces. When an inmate, Garcia, tired of the abuse he suffered at the hands of Velez, solved the Lament Configuration, Velez mistook the box for an espionage device, and forced other captured revolutionaries to solve the box for him, or else they would be executed; unsurprisingly, none of them agreed to solve the box.
When an inmate, Mendez, refused to solve the Lament Configuration, Velez had him shot to death, simply asking for "another volunteer". When his right-hand man, Captain Corrazon, warned Velez to stop killing people because the "mounting death rate" was attracting authorities, his response was to beat him and threaten to "bring the heat to him" for not providing the right people. Velez also locked a revolutionary leader, Diaz, in a cell and tortured him for days to "break his spirit". Discovering that a substitute was coming to take his position, Velez visited Diaz in his cell and promptly beat the man to death, even after he had told Velez about the dangers of solving the box. Accidentally solving the Lament Configuration himself, Garcia, now a Cenobite, came to take Velez to Hell, who revealed that Velez was so cruel that his actions transformed La Enfermidad into the "ideal location for solving the puzzles".
Now, his opposite.
Who is Edward Leverett? Edward Leverett is a psychopath who believes that chaos is everything, committing random acts of violence to satisfy his own addiction to the "sweet, sweet chaos". Having been tasked to look after another boy as a child, Edward instead brutally bullied him for his satisfaction. Joining the army, Edward punished a deserter by pouring bleach on his face and scrubbing his whole body with a wire brush. Recruited to be the leader of a battalion that attacked an enemy position in the Falklands, Edward ignored an injured soldier, and disobeyed his orders, leading most of his men to their own death and the mutilation of a survivor who he had left to die; these crimes resulted in Edward receiveing a dishonorable discharge and a prison sentence of three years.
Believing the Lament Configuration to be the portal to a world where he could fit in, a world of pure chaos, Edward murdered his own wife shortly after solving it just to prove to her that he wasn't "hooked on order". Encountering the Leviathan and mistaking it for the "Arch-Duke of Chaos", Edward happily declares his love for chaos, until the Leviathan makes him relive the crimes he had committed, and in each one of them he refuses to accept the blame, unsurprisingly. Becoming a snake-like Cenobite, Edward was disappointed to see that Hell was not a place where chaos would rule, but gadly accepted the chance to "pervert, destroy, corrupt", even if that means obeying someone else.
Freudian Excuse? Zero for both, Edward tried to make himself look sympathetic by claiming that he was tired of following orders, but always felt that order was unnatural, giving him an "excuse" to torment people.
Heinous? Like i had said, polar opposites, but two sides of the same coin, two maniacal men with a love for unnecessary bloodshed. One believes in order, the other one believes in chaos, but their actions make them equally-evil. Velez and Edward symbolize two different aspects of humanity, proving that both order and chaos can fascinate and attract psychopaths dedicated in making the lives of others a living hell. While Velez was congratulated for his love for order and managing to be evil at same time, Edward became a joke in Hell for his passion towards chaos and need for violence.
Conclusion? Letting you guys decide, now i'm fairly certain that no one else from the original Barker comics counts, but i have just one more character from Epic's own version of Hellraiser that i'll likely be proposing later.
edited 20th Jun '18 11:59:27 PM by TheMadCr0w

Winter Lemarchand
Kevin Dewey Horn