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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#12026: Apr 22nd 2013 at 2:16:44 AM

Most of that was onscreen in the tie-in comic, which is canon to the game.

Regular Joker ironically fails to live up to the henious factor set by his alternate dimension counterpart, showing the only one who can out-monster the Joker is the Joker.

For the Regieme, despite the henious acts they all commit they're all Well Intentioned Extremists who eventually fall into Knight Templar territory, most of them showing regret or having some redeeming qualities or sympathetic motivations (despite some of the heinous things Regime Superman does, it's impossible to not feel sympathy for him since he was made to kill his own wife and unborn son which directly triggered the nuking of Metropolis, or in his own words:

Injustice!Batman: I lost my parents to crime. Injustice!Superman: But you weren't the gun.)

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#12027: Apr 22nd 2013 at 2:39:47 AM

I PMd Neo asking him to remove that last line about Syndrome.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#12028: Apr 22nd 2013 at 2:42:21 AM

neoYTPism hasn't been around for a long time, so I am not seeing a reason to PM him. You'd be better off by messaging Fighteer.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#12029: Apr 22nd 2013 at 6:11:24 AM

Going to say no to Injustice!Luthor and the Regime members.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#12030: Apr 22nd 2013 at 6:18:31 AM

I removed the extraneous bit from Syndrome's writeup. FYI, I do read this thread, though sometimes I skip posts if it's moving fast or you're discussing examples that I'm not familiar with.

These continued arguments give me heartburn. Can we please manage to discuss this trope politely, without getting in each others' faces? If feelings are getting hurt, it means you're taking the discussion too seriously. We have to be willing to listen to dissenting voices.

That said, Another Duck, I think you need a break. You're taking this way too personally.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#12032: Apr 22nd 2013 at 8:19:04 AM

Eh, no feelings hurt here. Didn't really think this was particularly heated. I only take personally what's directed at me and how I think. Which is personal.

Check out my fanfiction!
DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
Avatar by Leafsnake
#12033: Apr 22nd 2013 at 9:48:43 AM

The Regime members are up for debate to? Alright, I vote no: They're a group, some fall under Well-Intentioned Extremist, Superman has an Even Evil Has Loved Ones, and the rest fail the heinous standard.

edited 22nd Apr '13 12:25:05 PM by DrPsyche

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#12034: Apr 22nd 2013 at 10:03:49 AM

Here's one I question -Atticus Moon from Big Time Movie. He planned to shift the moon out of orbit natural disasters to strong arm world leaders and rule to world.

Given the fact the show doesn't have a laugh track, nor does it have Dan Schnider Imunity, it's hard to tell if he's played for laughs.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
willthiswork Since: Oct, 2012
#12035: Apr 22nd 2013 at 10:47:22 AM

Alt Joker is the only one I would consider for Injustice, although if you stick to just the game he is iffy on the on-screen requirement. I have not read the tie-in comic and I cannot comment on that.

I agree with cutting Broly and Gero. I am iffy on Babidi. Freiza and Cell are keeps.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#12036: Apr 22nd 2013 at 12:38:30 PM

Alright, let's launch the star Wars page! How do we put this one up from Sandbox to real page?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#12037: Apr 22nd 2013 at 12:41:38 PM

By copying the source into Monster.Star Wars, setting a page type, and asking a moderator to lock it and wick it, then cutlist the sandbox.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
Sterok Since: Apr, 2012
#12039: Apr 22nd 2013 at 1:33:36 PM

For Injustice, agreed that Alt Joker is the only one that counts.

randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#12040: Apr 22nd 2013 at 1:50:13 PM

The star wars page needs some slight edits. Mostly indenting and links.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#12042: Apr 22nd 2013 at 2:38:44 PM

Re: Star Wars: I'm looking at the page and I don't think Evazan meets the heinous standard. Also, Chantique was majorly screwed over by her dad (who's also on the page); is that at all played for sympathy?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#12043: Apr 22nd 2013 at 2:43:18 PM

No, it's not. She tries to play it for sympathy, but the hero Zayne sees that she's a complete sadist who loves hurting people completely independent from that. She tries painting herself as the Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds, but he points out she's full of it. It's not even something she genuinely believes, just an act she puts on. It's also notable that the whole sold into slavery thing happened to other characters who remained good people. Chantique is implied to be enjoyed hurting others before she was sold. (in fact, the reason she was sold)

The Galaxy of Fear stuff sticks out because it's a kids' series. Evazan being a child murderer who tries to cause a Zombie Apocalypse on a planet makes him...stand out there. Plus he operates with far, far fewer resources than Gog did.

edited 22nd Apr '13 2:46:52 PM by Lightysnake

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#12044: Apr 22nd 2013 at 3:47:12 PM

I've fixed Tarkin's entry, there ARE people who do like him, and character bashing isn't a criteria for C Mdom anymore. Also what happened to Jorus C'both?

Also I do remember that Ambar tried to do a myth and legend subsection before. I did say I did not approve of Ahriman and Apophis qualifying. However.....I've changed my mind on Ahriman, he can stay[tup].

Apep on the other hand...I am still skeptical about. Lighty has pointed out an incidence where Ahriman had moral agency and rejected redemption and if we use Morgoth as a precedent, he qualifies. However, from what I found on the other Wiki, there is nothing about Apophis that says he has moral agency. He seems to be all made of evil, and his existence was to explain a cycle. He does not say or talk anything. He just exists because he's evil and can't stand good. So it's Made of Evil + lack of moral agency, almost same story as Satan. Making it very dubious if he can stay. Still voting [tdown] on Apophis but [tup] on Ahriman.

I also have some proposed examples from Chinese mythology I wanna go over for the religion subpage, through a lot of them is from Journey To The West. Is that ok?

edited 22nd Apr '13 3:54:34 PM by xie323

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#12045: Apr 22nd 2013 at 3:56:55 PM

C'baoth was voted down on grounds of sketchy moral agency.

Apophis though...Apophis also commanded demons directly and it's strongly inicated he's sentient. He just hates light and Ra and all that's good

I'd love to here some Chinese mythology examples.

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#12046: Apr 22nd 2013 at 4:00:03 PM

Where's the implication that he's sentient? Point it to me any I might change my mind about it.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#12047: Apr 22nd 2013 at 4:01:32 PM

ambar provided previously that Apophis commanded other demons.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#12048: Apr 22nd 2013 at 4:17:13 PM

Well, if we're on mythology again, I mentioned way back that the Mongols and the Australian Aborigines both had figures similar to Ahriman. Submitted for your approval: Marmoo from Australia and Erlik from Mongolia. Anyone think they fit? Ambar, you're our myth guy; what do you think of these two? Erlik in particular seems lovely; think Adam and Eve or Pandora, but deliberately screwing everything for everyone else instead of by accident.

edited 22nd Apr '13 4:21:58 PM by HamburgerTime

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#12049: Apr 22nd 2013 at 4:23:28 PM

Oh, I know these!

Erlik is an excellent addition.

Xie, are Ginkaku and Kinkaku examples you're bringing up?

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#12050: Apr 22nd 2013 at 4:34:34 PM

I'm only barely familiar with the characters, I will admit. Do you know somewhere other then wikipedia where we could get information on Erlik in particular? Marmoo strikes me as a 99% monster. He's bad, but at least part of his motivation seems to be showing off for his wife.

@xie

Chinese myth is one of my major mythological blindspots. Would love to hear about the worst of the worst from that mythos.

edited 22nd Apr '13 4:37:21 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar


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