During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Not in the comic, but the novel is in the comic continuity, and is co-written by Robert Kirkman, who was one of the creators of the comic book series.
I'll admit it's somewhat of a gray area, which is why I asked instead of just nominating a reconsideration of the CM entry for him.
(And I just heard back from the comic fan I mentioned. They hadn't read it, unfortunately.)
All your safe space are belong to TrumpLighty, how's the write-ups for Hack Slash and the additions for Dormammu and Carnage coming along (Cavella and Rawlins seem fine to me personally)?
Question. Is it possible for a Complete Monster to ally himself with the protagonists...
...IF it benefits him in some way? For instance, a CM Evil Overlord gets usurped and wants his throne back, but is smart enough to know that the heroes are his best chance for survival/success.
Now, is it possible for even a CM to have standards? I know the Red Skull-Joker thing was out of canon, so that doesn't count, but what about in-canon?
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No, they're not allowed to have standards at all. There is actually one in-canon instance of the Joker having standards, though, where he's shown to be disgusted by the Great White Shark and points out that while he kills people, the Shark instead ruins their lives. We debated this and dismissed it as just Dan Slott being on his anti-corporate soapbox.
edited 21st Apr '13 12:47:29 PM by HamburgerTime
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thanks. So, if the Joker-Red Skull thing was in-canon, does that mean Mr. J would be disqualified?
Now, is it possible for even a CM to have standards?
Only if the 'standards' don't equate to 'redeeming qualities.' Like Arlong from One Piece: very, very borderline on Complete Monster. I can't even buy that really cared that much about his crew as people as much as he did as fishman allies in his xenophobic, power-hungry cause, 'cause the whole thing with Nami was meant to show he doesn't really know the meaning of "nakama". BUT he is genuinely mortified when Luffy uses on of his fishman allies as a living shield. And that is a genuine standard, and showed that no matter how he thought of his crew, he had some care for them. So he's only 99% evil rather than a Complete Monster like Hody Jones.
By contrast, people like Yazan Gable and the Joker have standards that are all about them and what they consider "fun."
Arlong is an example I hate to cut as the character is so unbelievably vile, cruel and loathsome...but as you said...Arlong does care for his crew. he shows genuine horror when he finds them hurt by Zoro. In the flashback with Fisher Tiger, he's also heartbroken along with Jinbei over their 'big bro's' death.
Just to keep tabs on the votes so far for Bill Sikes from Oliver Twist: it looks as though the previous discussions were mostly folded into discussions about Sykes, the villain from Oliver And Company. TV Rulez Again did ask if he'd been brought up (@9826), Paireon gave a "keep" vote (@9875), and then the discussion was forgotten again.
Since the discussion was restarted, it looks as though I'm inclined toward "keep" (@11943), Hamburger Time seems inclined toward "keep" (@11945), Occasional Exister is on the fence (@11959), Ambar is also on the fence (@11965), and Paireon has voted "keep" (@11966).
It sounds as though the sticking point for those on the fence is whether or not he meets the more general standards of monstrosity required for the trope - he certainly seems to meet the other criteria (heinous by the standards of the story (indeed, by the standards of the author's entire body of work), not played for comedy, never shows remorse, not a Well-Intentioned Extremist, no Freudian Excuse, no possibility of redemption, not lacking in moral agency, etc.).
edited 21st Apr '13 3:16:13 PM by mlsmithca
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Arlong is defenitely borderline to a Complete Monster and again I doubt he really loved his crewmates for who they were so much as he cared for them due to what they were. (He seems to with all honesty consider Nami his "shipmate" too, which shows he really has no idea what the true meaning of Nakama) But he did have genuine standards and some sort of care for them. Aside from those moments you mentioned, I was also refering to when Luffy used Hatchi as a shield and Arlong was outraged.
Captain Kuro, Sir Crocodile, and Eneru are similar situations. Not sure about Spandam, though. I recall he was voted down for being pathetic and incompetent, but he was sort of like One Piece's Cutler Beckett to me.
edited 21st Apr '13 3:26:03 PM by AnewMan
Spandam's an awful prick, but he's too pathetic for me in the end. Arlong also comes up short in the monstrosity to Hody Jones. I was all set to propose Doflamingo eventually, but I doubt he'll ever count now, given his genuine care for his subordinates.
Arlong's also very similar to Hody...Hody just blows him out of the water in the depths he'll sink to (god, how much water imagery did I just use?)

If it's not in the comics, then I personally don't care. The Governor stands on his own as a CM there