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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ThePat Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Singularity
#119951: Jun 2nd 2018 at 6:56:17 PM

@The Mad Cr0w: Oh, so you were along with a fellow troper already suggested Namba and Evolt. As of the latest episode, Namba already died.

BTW, how to delete that post that I wrote regarding Namba?

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#119952: Jun 2nd 2018 at 7:26:22 PM

I found this on Marvel Animation. Is from X Men

  • Graydon Creed is the leader of the anti-Mutant group the Friends of Humanity. Under Creed's orders, the Friends of Humanity attack halfway houses and other businesses and non-profit organizations that are sympathetic to mutants, even committing lynchings. Creed even organizes an attack on a hospital for the blind, because the gentle, intelligent mutant Hank "Beast" McCoy works there to treat blind patients. Creed later admits he plans to commit genocide against mutants amongst his most loyal followers, and takes part in Apocalypse's aforementioned plague plot to wipe them out. It is revealed Creed is actually the son of Mystique and Sabretooth, two prominent mutants. When this is revealed, he angrily snaps, shooting a holographic image of Sabretooth, screaming "I'm not like you! You are not my father! I'm normal!". In order to get back into the Friends of Humanity's good graces, Creed devises a plan to murder his mother and his mutant siblings, Rogue and Nightcrawler, viciously rejecting he has any connection to them while trying to murder them.

I think that we should cut the words that he say? Because dunno, while I see no reason to cut him due to his vileness, the words that he says are almost sympathetic because, seriously, denying that Sabretooth is your biological father is almost sympathetic.

Anyway, the words themselves should be cut. Maybe something like...

  • Graydon Creed is the leader of the anti-Mutant group the Friends of Humanity. Under Creed's orders, the Friends of Humanity attack halfway houses and other businesses and non-profit organizations that are sympathetic to mutants, even committing lynchings. Creed even organizes an attack on a hospital for the blind, because the gentle, intelligent mutant Hank "Beast" McCoy works there to treat blind patients. Creed later admits he plans to commit genocide against mutants amongst his most loyal followers, and takes part in Apocalypse's aforementioned plague plot to wipe them out. It is revealed Creed is actually the son of Mystique and Sabretooth, two prominent mutants. When this is revealed, he angrily snaps, denying his ancestry. In order to get back into the Friends of Humanity's good graces, Creed devises a plan to murder his mother and his mutant siblings, Rogue and Nightcrawler, viciously rejecting he has any connection to them while trying to murder them.

I fail to see any reason why his entry should mention his exact words.

edited 2nd Jun '18 7:27:01 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
WanderingBrowser Since: Jan, 2001
#119953: Jun 2nd 2018 at 9:21:00 PM

I wished to ask; why was the Dread Emperor, a sadistic psychopath who intimidates others into obeying him through Disproportionate Retribution and who is accompanied by child slaves whom his magic armor turns into Human Shields (and whom he is implied to emotionally, physically, and sexually abuse), removed from the Dungeons & Dragons page? His presence there is even cited on the Critical Role page.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#119954: Jun 2nd 2018 at 9:27:56 PM

In a nutshell? He has no character or development. He's the subject of a very, very brief snippet in the Book of Vile Darkness with little else to him that we could discern

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#119955: Jun 2nd 2018 at 9:40:26 PM

So back in January, I EP'ed a book series called The Last Bucelarii. Or should I say, Hero of Darkness?

The author, Andy Peloquin, decided to give the series a facelift (don't worry, the books are the same, just titled differently), changing the first three books' titles and even the series' name.

Book 1 is now called Darkblade Assassin. Book 2 is now called Darkblade Outcast. and Book 3 is now called Darkblade Protector.

I want to request the names for the books be changed on the Literature page. Or do I have to repost the entries onto the Drafts page?

edited 2nd Jun '18 9:41:39 PM by therealjackieboy

It's Spooky Month!
WanderingBrowser Since: Jan, 2001
#119956: Jun 2nd 2018 at 9:40:46 PM

Okay, thank you, that explains it.

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#119957: Jun 2nd 2018 at 9:41:28 PM

Heads up regarding Tuesday: due to other commitments in my life, I may need an extra day or two to get any Flash-related effortposts up when discussion time rolls around. I have completed the season, but the villain is a... complicated case and I think it would be wise to rewatch his episodes to make absolutely sure I get any and all information out on the table, and present it accurately enough for people to make a decision with. I have other commitments in my life and since this season is long and... not very good, it'll take a while, so please don't get antsy and bug me about an effortpost or preemptively effortpost anyone once Tuesday rolls around: just give me some time. I normally wouldn't put this much emphasis on such a thing, but I've noticed looking through the pages I missed that people have already been acting gung ho regarding discussion for this villain.

In the meantime, I will be sporadically releasing other effortposts for villains I've been sleeping on, so stay tuned for that.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#119958: Jun 2nd 2018 at 9:50:36 PM

[up][up] If he qualifies for Critical Role? By all means, I'd love to hear the argument.

[up] All good, mate

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#119959: Jun 2nd 2018 at 10:27:33 PM

[up][up] No problem there. Take as much time as you need.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#119960: Jun 2nd 2018 at 10:34:53 PM

So anyway on the agate sitiaution what do you guys think on the agency thing now?

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#119961: Jun 2nd 2018 at 10:39:27 PM

I say convenient Word of God is not enough to circumvent this as per our rules and retain a no. We measure what's onscreen and in-universe — if the creator wanted this to apply, they would have made this clear in the work itself.

By the way, what's our tally on Dead by Daylight? I think Myers is a cut, and Hawk has been downvoted, but I've seen votes in either direction for the Doctor.

edited 2nd Jun '18 10:39:39 PM by Scraggle

speyeker Since: Jan, 2001
#119962: Jun 2nd 2018 at 10:43:25 PM

Sounds good, FriedWarthog. Take all the time you need so we can do this right. I remember back in 2016 the effortposts for both Zoom and Vandal Savage were gargantuan, but it was worth it.

edited 2nd Jun '18 10:43:44 PM by speyeker

Knack Since: Mar, 2018
#119963: Jun 2nd 2018 at 10:48:30 PM

Yeah the creator's word by itself isn't enough to say a character counts or not, if Glitchtale's creator wanted it make it so that Agate knew what she was doing she should have actually portrayed that in the series itself in any fashion but Agate still has sketchy agency despite how she says she doesn't, as there is no evidence or indication she does have any agency in the actual series.

@Scraggle The tally for the doctor is still the same, yourself, myself, 43, and Joe say to cut all the examples, ACW, Newton, and Duck say to keep the doctor.

edited 2nd Jun '18 10:49:34 PM by Knack

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#119964: Jun 2nd 2018 at 10:50:46 PM

Four to three. Anyone else want to weigh in?

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#119965: Jun 2nd 2018 at 11:07:58 PM

Oh, the Dread Emperor doesn't make the cut in Critical Role either. We know nothing about his personality.

He was fought and defeated before the campaign was even streamed, is only alluded to when it's stated that Keyleth accidentally killed a child she tried to save, and it's only due to Word of God that we know it was him specifically that the party fought when said child was accidentally killed.

Even in the special which tells the story of Vox Machina and how they came across the Dread Emperor, we still know nothing about his personality or goals

edited 5th Jun '18 3:33:51 AM by Awesomekid42

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#119966: Jun 2nd 2018 at 11:09:50 PM

Keep the doctor, I guess.

edited 2nd Jun '18 11:10:49 PM by FriedWarthog

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#119967: Jun 2nd 2018 at 11:48:52 PM

I'll throw in a keep for the doctor as well.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
MahStache from Old Jersey, not the bad new one Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#119970: Jun 3rd 2018 at 1:09:20 AM

I have a little question... If a villain gives orders to a lower villain such as The Dragon (orders that are enough to count for this trope) and the dragon is the one who actually carries them out, which villain would be the one who counts? Would it be the higher villain, the dragon or both? This question is related to something, do not worry.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#119971: Jun 3rd 2018 at 1:12:05 AM

Depends. The villain who gives the order usually bears the brunt of responsibility, but special pleasure or going over and above in carrying out the orders can distinguish said dragon

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#119972: Jun 3rd 2018 at 1:34:30 AM

The policy is that the creator cant just say there a CM and they would be added that's not what happened camila said that agate was in control of her actions in response to an akser asking this Nothing in the series itself implied that agate was not in control of her actions that was merely an Alternate Charachter Interpretation, Wich was Jossed

edited 3rd Jun '18 1:48:49 AM by Kylotrope

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#119973: Jun 3rd 2018 at 2:35:35 AM

@ Speyeker Oh yeah, totally forgot, thank you for reminding me. So yeah, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Season 5 has (surprise, surprise, after the two previous seasons also didn't have one) no new qualifiers whatsoever.

  • Arc Villain Kasius probably comes closest to the trope, being an ice cold tyrant who keeps his servitors obedient through sensory deprivation, kills them for minor issues like having scars and rules with an iron fist over the Lighthouse, regularly purging the human population, executing some as an example, having the few Inhumans participate in barbaric arena fights etc. The problem is that he genuinely cares for his right-hand woman Sinara, who once saved his life. And that he is basically the result of a fucked up family legacy.

  • General Hale and her daughter Ruby don't count for the simple fact of caring for each other and more or less being victims of HYDRA's grooming. Plus, Ruby is also in a relationship with Werner von Strucker.

  • Anton Ivanov returns but doesn't really.....do much and is really just a puppet forced by Hale to comply. Nothing indicates that his previous Freudian Excuse doesn't count anymore.

  • The Confederacy. Weeell......none of the members really get much screentime or character development. Even Taryan, father of the aforementioned Kasius, is barely a presence. Then again, he pulls a Karma Houdini, so lets wait and see if he returns with more deeds or characterization. As it is now, these guys just start a relatively small-scale invasion of Earth, simultaneously to the other invasion. Which is kinda like.....tuesday for the MCU.

  • General Talbot, aka the MCU's version of Graviton. Yeah....pretty obvious no. One couldn't really find a clearer example of Bad Powers, Good People. He genuinely wanted to save the world and lost himself through the poisonous influence of the Gravitonium.

The only one that might warrant his write-up being updated is Daniel Whitehall, who appeared in a flashback. He was shown to indoctrinate young HYDRA recruits from the get-go, showing a pretty sexist side by telling a teenage Hale in particular that her only purpose in the organization is to give birth to their perfect super soldier. When she asks if she can't help HYDRA any other way, he just coldy replies that she always has the choice to comply or not. And we all know what he means by that... But then again, he is already such a big bastard that this might not even be worth mentioning. You decide.

edited 3rd Jun '18 2:37:54 AM by Forenperser

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#119974: Jun 3rd 2018 at 3:30:07 AM

Did I miss anything? Any new candidates in here?

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities

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