During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Here are my drafts:
- The Killer is a man who kidnaps women and either tortures them or films himself killing them, having done so for decades. Imprisoning a child named Mary in his basement and killing her mother in front of her, he adopts her, renames her Vivian, and has her assist in his murders. Designing his basement as a torture maze, he kills anybody who breaks into his house. Once Blair, Ollie, Connor, and Riley sneak into his place, he tries to kill them, later managing to decapitate Riley. When Sheriff Dennis comes over to investigate, the Killer tries to pin the blame on Ollie and Blair, then stabs the sheriff to death alongside Vivian.
- Elexis Sinclaire is the seductive Overarching Villain of the series, and the current CEO of SinTek. An Evilutionary Biologist even as a kid, Elexis plans to turn humanity into destructive mutants as a way to unlock mankind’s ultimate genetic potential, all as a form of scientific progress. Creating the drug U4 that turns people into mutants, she has it sold around Freeport, while also kidnapping homeless people and random civilians and forcing them to undergo painful transformations. Ordering gangster Antonio Mancini to steal a safety deposit box from the bank's vault, she forcibly transforms him into a mutant after he fails and gains the attention of HardCorps agent Col. John Blade. She has her troops try and dump U4 into the Freeport water system, which would’ve turned the city into mutants. Once that failed, Elexis steals a bunch of nuclear warheads and plans to insert U4 into them, preparing to launch them onto various parts of the world, hoping to convert the entire Earth into mutants. Despite her father curing her of a disease, she keeps him as a giant attack mutant, and later has Blade fight him. Making a getaway, she returns in ‘’Emergence’’ to start her plan again, where she rigs a laboratory to explode, inserts mutant DNA into Blade and Jessica Cannon, and prepares to unleash her mutants onto Freeport.
- Gianni Manero is a psychopathic, power-hungry mob boss who desires the destruction of Freeport city. Using Elexis Sinclaire’s SinTek mutants, he forces Sinclaire’s head scientist to work for him by holding his daughter hostage. He’s altered the U4 drug to not only control the mutants directly, but also transform humans into hundreds of giant Goliath mutants. When he discovers that John Blade’s after him, he lures him to his lab and tries to have him killed by his Goliaths, and once that fails, he rigs the facility to explode, then tries to destroy Freeport’s offshore nuclear power plant, planning to start a chain reaction that will cause Freeport to explode, preparing to kill not only 10 million people, but himself too.
edited 2nd Jun '18 8:56:18 AM by therealjackieboy
It's Spooky Month!I fixed that in my word file. It's Slut Shaming (without the space: Slut-Shaming).
I made a rewrite for Shinkuro Isaka from Kamen Rider Double, his entry is just too short and filler-ish if you ask me.
- Doctor Shinkuro Isaka, the Weather Dopant, killed Terui's family, modifies Gaia Memories to kill their users so that he can take their power for himself, and is able to use Gaia Memories via direct insertion without any ill effects (typically, repeated use of Gaia Memories via direct insertion warps the user's mind, which shows that Isaka didn't have far to fall). He then tries to get Saeko to kill her own father and take control of the Museum.
Now, the new one.
- Shinkuro Isaka/Weather Dopant is a cold-hearted ally of The Museum obsessed with becoming the most powerful man alive. Originally a Straw Nihilist, Isaka found meaning in life upon witnessing the Terror Dopant attacking a group of people, feeling not fear, but joy by the act. Obtaining a Gaia Memory, Isaka committed a series of murders just to test his abilities; invading Terui's home, Isaka froze his family, despite his father begging him not to hurt his wife and daughter, not wasting any opportunity to remind Terui of the incident to mock him. Using his position as a physician to distribute Gaia Memories, Isaka modifies them to kill their users so he can steal their powers. Wanting the Terror Memory for himself, Isaka tries to coerce Saeko into killing her own father. A disturbingly realistic portrayal of a psychopath, Isaka's mind was unaffected by the repeated use of Gaia Memories, showing how he didn't need an excuse to become a monster.
edited 2nd Jun '18 12:48:47 PM by TheMadCr0w
Another one I'd say ax the summary sentence for but other than that, the rewrite looks fine.
On Mir's note about potholes, please don't use The Sociopath, it's a prerequisite for getting on this and potholing it is just redundant.
edited 2nd Jun '18 12:15:10 PM by 43110
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Looks good. Maybe pothole Terror Dopant to Big Bad since he's the shows main villain.
In case anyone asks he's probbly bad enough but he loved his daughters.
Nah both isaka and utopia are arcvillains who are around for like a set of episodes each, well Terror is the baddie of the entire thing from start to finish.
edited 2nd Jun '18 12:26:15 PM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."![]()
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I'm sure that not all CM are Sociopaths. The Sociopath apply to a very specific type of personality. I agree that is pointless use it in a Entry for this trope, but I wouldn't call it a pre-requisite.
I'm sure that we had cases where a CM actually showed ability to genuine empathy and love, but who willingly got rid of them. Sure, they're kind of weird, but they exist. I don't remember the discussion because I wasn't there, but it went like
>"this villain can't count, he's able to feel empathy unlike the other villain"
>but he ever uses it? He loved someone and willingly erased said love via artifitial means. That just make him worse!
edited 2nd Jun '18 12:27:19 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my countryWhile I'm willing to hear arguments, I literally have yet to see a single case where someone has actually made a convincing argument that a CM is also not a sociopath.
... No, Kazuya, you can both willingly refuse to respond to your good qualities and be a sociopath:
- Ego chooses to kill a woman he loved for getting in the way of his plans and murdering his children for disappointing him;
- Naraku desired power so he killed Kikyo to similarly stop his feelings from getting in the way of his lust for power;
- Junko allegedly "loves" her sister and classmates, she still uses and kills them at her leisure to stimulate her.
Johan is a sociopath, there's really not another way to slice it.
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Uhh... Junko is so clearly a sociopath I can't believe this is being debated. Furthermore, psychopath is essentially a jacked up version of a sociopath and to qualify as one you also have to be a sociopath, so acknowledging her as the former automatically does so for the latter.
Look, a Sociopath can love others in their own twisted way but it's ultimately going to come crashing down when push comes to shove. Similarly, a Sociopath doesn't automatically mean someone's going to be a CM, Cartman being an obvious example there. Nevertheless, if you've crossed the threshold into CM-dom, from a trope standpoint at least, you qualify as The Sociopath. Crow, that's irrelevant, he qualifies as The Sociopath as a trope, I don't care what real life medical condition he has.
edited 2nd Jun '18 12:48:17 PM by 43110
Realistically speaking, i doubt all C Ms qualify for the diagnosis of sociopathy, but well, we can't argue with fiction.
Even the ultimate anime Complete Monster, Johan Liebert, was able to shed genuine tears when reminded of his past, and it's implied that he is only evil because feeling compassion for his sister twisted his way of thinking, but that's just one of his possible excuses.
Personally i think he's more on the schizoid spectrum, which makes hella sense if you think about it. He's still bad to the bone.
edited 2nd Jun '18 12:40:59 PM by TheMadCr0w
Except it isn't a prerequisite, there are characters listed who are not sociopaths like Junko Enoshima as well as other characters who are more like psychopaths, and there are characters who count who DID love somebody but disregarded any love for them later. Sociopathy is a specific mental condition that has more to it than "oh I don't love anybody". I believe it has been brought up that Eric Cartman is a sociopath who doesn't count and Junko does count but isn't a sociopath.
EDIT: I am not saying she does love anybody, I am saying that that was the argument for her personality. I think Scraggle and Lighty have said what the difference is but frankly I am not interested enough in this conversation to bother either of them about it. If there is any doubt then I think you should ask somebody who could explain the difference better than me.
Okay, I just refreshed my memory, I understand why Junko SEEMS like a sociopath, she doesn't love anybody etc. The main difference is that sociopaths see themselves as the center of the universe, psychopaths are anti social in their behavior but still acknowledge others, Junko specifically wants others to feel the same despair that she enjoys, in other words she has a fucked up obsession of despair that she wants others to take pleasure in. I think the difference has already been brought up like fifty times in the past on this thread and I do not have much interest in arguing the precise details of how they are different. Again this is a medical topic argued in real life how different it actually is, to where we have to argue pedantics which is not anything I am interested in doing. I am not saying you are wrong or anything since I myself am not that sure how different they actually are, but I know they are different. I am not a medical expert though so Idk what to tell you. Ask Scraggle or somebody who might know more.
edited 2nd Jun '18 5:14:23 PM by Knack
I'd say Psychopaths are generally more likely to count than Sociopaths. In fact, most real-life sociopaths aren't even criminals, and live completely normal lives, just that they fake emotions. Psychopaths on the other hand are extremely intelligent and manipulative, stone-cold sons of bitches who emotionally manipulate everyone. Frank Underwood is a good example of a psychopath.
That said, I'm still pretty certain that most CM's are mentally sick/psychotic rather than Sociopaths or Psychopaths.
edited 2nd Jun '18 1:00:03 PM by MenInGreyToBlak
I think the problem is more how they are similar enough that there are people who think they are precisely the same, it is specific how they are different. Overall they are similar yeah but there are details that make them different.
EDIT:
Psychotic is an adjective for psychopathy though.
edited 2nd Jun '18 1:08:06 PM by Knack
Feel free to debate medical conditions all you want but I stand by all CMs applying for the trope The Sociopath if you pay enough attention to how they act in situations with people they’re supposed to love and such.
Yeah, there isn't really a difference between sociopath and psychopath. It's just that people tend to think 'Violent and crazy' when they hear psychopath and 'Ice cold and manipulative' when they hear sociopath.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian@43 I respect that opinion but I doubt this conversation will go anywhere anyways. It is hard to specify what the difference is since it is just that specific.
EDIT: @Forenperser Well, there are differences but either way this isn't the most productive conversation.
edited 2nd Jun '18 1:22:20 PM by Knack
I have a new candidate from a work that I bet people wouldn't expect to be brought up here. The candidate is responsible for the trope name Voodoo Shark.
What is the work?
The novelization of Jaws The Revenge.
Who is the candidate?
Papa Jacques. A local witch doctor. He helps the people of the Bahamas for a price. Michael Brody believes that he is a con man with no real power, exploiting people including Mike's assistants for money.
What does Papa Jacques do?
After Michael has an altercation with Jacques in which he accuses him of being a sham and accidentally breaks one of his magical gourds, the witch doctor gets angry enough to condemn Mike and his entire family to death. He places a curse on the Brody family so that they will all die.
Unfortunately, it turns out that Jacques is no sham, and he uses voodoo magic to extract revenge on the Brody family. He weaves supernatural powers over a shark. This shark turns out to be the offspring of the sharks from Jaws 1 and 2 (in the novels, the second shark was female). This forces the shark to target the Brody family. Sections of the novel are written from the shark's perspective, indicating that it actually knows nothing of the Brody family or the fact that Martin killed its parents. The shark is being forced to target them by a force that it does not understand. The shark just follows along with it in the hope of getting a decent meal.
As in the film, the shark ends up killing Sean. After Ellen arrives in the Bahamas following Sean's death, Jacques has Thea's pail stolen so he can curse it. This is what leads to Thea walking outside towards the water in a zombie like trance. Yes, he tries to have a little girl killed as an act of revenge for her father accusing him of being a con artist and accidentally breaking a gourd.
Eventually, at the climax, Jacques seems to posses the shark during its confrontation with Ellen, Mike, Jake, and Hoagie. The shark ends up eating Jake, who survived in the film. After Ellen impales the shark with he bow of the boat, Jacques dies along with the shark.
Heinousness?
Jacques condemned an entire family to death because a man accused him of being a fraud and accidentally broke one of his gourds. He made the shark kill Sean, and he tried to hypnotize a five year old girl into getting eaten. He is implied to take control of the shark in the climax, which would make him directly responsible for Jake's death. I think that trying to have a five year old eaten over a broken gourd is pretty unique.
The only other human villain in the novel is a gangster who has a grudge against Hoagie. He engages the heroes in a plane fight as they race to Ellen's location in the climax. He ends up falling out of his plane and being eaten. He seems A Lighter Shade of Black though, as he is Affably Evil and befriends Ellen. His beef is with Hoagie and he has nothing against anyone else. At least he didn't try to feed five year old to a shark.
Redeeming features?
He does genuinely help the people who come to him, though considering how evil and narcissistic he must be to try to have an entire family killed over something so petty, I think it's safe to assume his motivation was more about making money than wanting to make people happy.
Mitigating factors?
Well, he does have a legitimate reason to dislike Michael, but to call his response Disproportionate Retribution would be an understatement.
jjj

Alright, Bryce has 15 upvotes to 1 downvote and it doesn't look like anyone has anything else to throw in so here's his write up
edited 2nd Jun '18 8:02:39 AM by username2527