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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#119826: Jun 1st 2018 at 9:10:09 AM

[up][up]Struckers a NSWIE, we actually cut him becuase he genuinely loved his wife.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#119827: Jun 1st 2018 at 9:14:52 AM

@ACW, I don't think you gave your opinion on Bryce. Do you think he counts or are you unsure?

ReynTime250 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#119828: Jun 1st 2018 at 9:17:50 AM

Speaking about Stryker and him being cut about his wife.

  • Freudian Excuse: Apparently his son Jason blamed his parents for his "condition," so he used his powers of illusion to torture them with nightmares and visions—leading to Stryker's wife killing herself with a power drill. Of course, given that Stryker's not exactly the most reliable witness, how much of this information is accurate is debatable at best.

Is it ever confirmed he's an Unreliable Narrator? If that's the case, could we do a re-evaluation on whether he counted.

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#119830: Jun 1st 2018 at 9:48:07 AM

I'm slightly leaning yes on Bryce, but then his character page needs to be fixed.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#119831: Jun 1st 2018 at 10:04:12 AM

[tdown] Monty.

[tup] Laster. And Fanfic!Bill

edited 1st Jun '18 10:23:41 AM by AustinDR

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#119832: Jun 1st 2018 at 10:20:59 AM

[tup] to Bryce,Laster and another version of Bill

Abstain on Monty

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
AFreakyDude Since: Jul, 2015
#119833: Jun 1st 2018 at 10:21:47 AM

Has the Entity from Wes Craven's New Nightmare been discussed, or do you guys not consider him to be a separate entity from Freddy Krueger?

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#119834: Jun 1st 2018 at 10:30:15 AM

There's no proof that the Entity isn't Made of Evil. Agency also further gets complicated as I think they implied that it thinks it is Fredddy. I considered bringing it up myself years ago.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Knack Since: Mar, 2018
#119835: Jun 1st 2018 at 10:35:29 AM

Yes to Bryce,Johnny and Bill. I have thought on it for awhile and yeah just cut the Dead by Daylight characters and have this discussion be done. No to Monty, this is why I was unsure and it was why the Irreversible villain was cut. It is an explicit scene but that is about it, and it seems like an example where he might have been meant to count but actually doesn't.

edited 1st Jun '18 10:39:28 AM by Knack

sanfranman91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#119836: Jun 1st 2018 at 10:49:52 AM

Bryce, Johnny, Fan Fic!Bill all get [tup] for me. Monty's a nasty asshole but I'm gonna have to give him a [tdown] for flunking the heinous standard.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
ChaoticQueen Since: Mar, 2011
#119838: Jun 1st 2018 at 11:07:10 AM

Any good works with a fairy as a CM?

edited 1st Jun '18 11:15:56 AM by ChaoticQueen

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#119839: Jun 1st 2018 at 11:10:30 AM

[up]Bravely Default has Airy the evil one.

edited 1st Jun '18 11:11:00 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#119840: Jun 1st 2018 at 11:10:46 AM

[up][up]There's Opal Koboi from the Artemis Fowl series.

edited 1st Jun '18 11:11:01 AM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#119842: Jun 1st 2018 at 11:15:34 AM

Tad Williams' War of the Flowers also has Lord Nidrus Hellebore.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#119843: Jun 1st 2018 at 11:22:25 AM

Somewhat off topic, my sister found out about this thread and she agrees on Bryce counting (she's a fan of 13 Reasons...also made me watch the bathroom scene). She's also got surpised that Hal from Riverdale doesn't count.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#119844: Jun 1st 2018 at 11:26:00 AM

So what are we doing with Patrick Lloyd and the Dead by Daylight entries? For the record, I'm abstaining on the first, and lean towards just keeping the Doctor for the second.

ChaoticQueen Since: Mar, 2011
#119845: Jun 1st 2018 at 11:32:24 AM

Thanks for all the recommendations!

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#119846: Jun 1st 2018 at 11:39:54 AM

I still say burn the DbD candidates with fire... I don't care how edgy the background text tells us they are, there's way too much being read into the fact their onscreen actions amount to trying to kill the heroes.

As promised, Mir:

  • Once Upon a Time:
    • Stripped of the redeeming qualities of his original counterpart, Peter Pan is a demon who has children kidnapped and forced to become his eternal servants in Neverland. Having his shadow kill any who try to escape by removing their souls, Pan is also a hedonistic psychopath who tortures and breaks others, solely to amuse himself. Dying along with Neverland's magic, Pan plans to absorb the heart of a child, his own great-grandson, who is the truest believer in magic, making himself all-powerful and immortal, while the innocent child dies in his place. Also the Abusive Parent of Rumpelstiltskin, Pan abandoned his son for power, selfishly neglecting the responsibilities of adulthood. Killing his own supporter to complete a magical curse, Pan cares nothing for anyone and tries to murder Rumpelstiltskin's family just to torment his son.
    • Appearing in both Once Upon a Time in Wonderland and Season 6, Jafar is an Evil Sorcerer who plans to enslave three people and use their combined magic to grant his wish to become the all-powerful ruler of Wonderland. Cruelly transforming the woman who loved him into his iconic serpent staff, Jafar also murders a young woman just to watch the reaction of her lover, before resurrecting her and magically making her fall in love with him to spite her lover yet again. Though having the excuse of a neglectful father, Jafar is revealed to want to use magic to make his father love him just to hurt him more when he torments him. Upon becoming Royal Vizier of Agrabah, Jafar tortures and kills people at his whim with his dark powers and deceives Princess Jasmine into giving him a magical ring, then threatening to destroy Agrabah if she did not accept his marriage proposal. Threatening to use the ring to disintegrate Agrabah, Jafar means to create a ghostly version of the land and seal all the souls within in limbo for eternity. Cruel and selfish, Jafar is a wicked man who cares only for his own ambition and sadistically tormenting anyone he can.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#119847: Jun 1st 2018 at 11:49:19 AM

Beast: Well in regards to Hal, as I said whilst he's easily heinous enough I just feel the guy has to many issues to qualify.

He was raised by a pair of sociopaths who got him to murder somebody when he was only six years old, and raised him to believe that it was a good thing to murder sinners.

Its been heavily implied numerous times that mental illness runs in his family.

And his actors confirmed he'll be back next season, so there might be more to the story.

I'm honestly kind of disappointed he turned out to be the Black Hood, him being revealed to be a dangerous psycho borders on out of nowhere. I'm not exactly sure if this means his previous displays of care towards his daughters are rendered false or not.

So overall I don't think he counts, I'm happy to hear any counter arguments anyone wishes to make though.

edited 1st Jun '18 11:54:53 AM by MGD107

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#119848: Jun 1st 2018 at 11:57:59 AM

MDG, I'm 100% with you there, while he's easily bad enough his background is so ambiguously agency compromising I wouldn't be comfortable with him going up either. I have to say, Riverdale is now two for two on obvious end-of-season "whodunit" reveals, so hopefully they get their shit together in terms of mystery for the next one.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#119849: Jun 1st 2018 at 11:59:14 AM

[up][up] Wow, those are like three (maybe four) different Freudian Excuses.

edited 1st Jun '18 12:23:30 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#119850: Jun 1st 2018 at 12:03:26 PM

43, please add those Once Upon a Time rewrites to the Drafts. I think for the spin-off YMMV page, I'll just say "Jafar debuted here, before appearing in season 6 of the main series. See that page for details."

Kazuya, FYI, to pluralize a trope it's {{ Freudian Excuse }}s (without the spaces before the F and after the E).

edited 1st Jun '18 12:04:17 PM by ACW


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