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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#119651: May 31st 2018 at 1:17:48 PM

I'm leaning [tdown] on Pyg. For all of his cruelty towards the corrupt and the rich, Pyg really did seem to want a better Gotham, and a "better Jim", he even warned Jim to not enter a courthouse that was supposed to be a lethal trap for other officers.

speyeker Since: Jan, 2001
#119652: May 31st 2018 at 1:18:08 PM

I also think Diaz is worthy of discussion, and is definitely *not* a clear non-contender. He may not count, but he is certainly a serious candidate, at the very least.

MenInGreyToBlak V Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
V
#119653: May 31st 2018 at 1:18:37 PM

As for heinousness, I'd say Diaz has a signifcantly lower resource-amount when compared to other CM's. Especially when we have one Arrowverse CM who has a body count of six.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#119654: May 31st 2018 at 1:20:46 PM

Honestly I think Diaz might warrant a discussion but for now he really hasnt done enough in heinuness standard, so add him to the wait and see with supernatural's archangel micheal and Jeremiah.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
MahStache from Old Jersey, not the bad new one Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#119655: May 31st 2018 at 1:20:55 PM

The only thing right now about Diaz is that he's still alive. But i don't see them making him sympathetic or redeeming him at this point. And compared to the other arrow lads, he is small fry, but that's because he's a thug who somehow became the big bad. He had NO resources before he started coming into power, he was seriously just a street boy, comparable in resources and tier to Infinite from Sonic. He's the weakest big bad and can't really be compared to them, not mentioning his actual goals which aren't to destroy the city or world like the other guys (apart from Prometheus), he wants to take it over instead.

edited 31st May '18 1:23:00 PM by MahStache

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#119656: May 31st 2018 at 1:22:49 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] As I mentioned in the EP he has no intentions of cleaning Gotham’s corruption. He isn't even from Gotham. He just a sadistic hitman sent by Sofia to have him do what ever he wants and its implied to have just took the MO of the original Professor Pyg.

edited 31st May '18 1:23:19 PM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#119657: May 31st 2018 at 1:23:42 PM

True but like michael and jerimiah, it wouldnt hurt to wait since like them he's still around and set up as a major villain next season.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#119658: May 31st 2018 at 1:23:52 PM

His backstory was far more than simply being 'bullied'. And he did speak fondly of his father on several occasions. Burning the (already half-burned, mind you) picture of his dad wasn't presented as 'not really having loved his father' but as 'concluding with the past' (and a dose of irony, since he burned the picture in the same fire he burned his former childhood bully in, who destroyed his picture to begin with).

And yeah, heinousness is another issue. Prometheus did everything Diaz did to Oliver's friends and loved ones, but far, FAR worse. And Merlyn, Slade, Ra's and Damien put the city through far bigger horror.

edited 31st May '18 1:24:34 PM by Forenperser

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
MenInGreyToBlak V Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
V
#119659: May 31st 2018 at 1:24:15 PM

...and to that conclusion, I say we put him on wait and see.

However, there is a candidate I'd like to talk about; The Man from Arrowverse. He kills six people, which is LESS than what Diaz does, and they are both "just humans", as the writeup states. His crimes aren't "personal enough" or "sadistic enough" either, since there have been multiple CM's who are just that, probably even more.

Read his writeup, and I'd like some opinions.

edited 31st May '18 1:26:34 PM by MenInGreyToBlak

MahStache from Old Jersey, not the bad new one Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#119660: May 31st 2018 at 1:27:43 PM

Yeah we should just wait. I feel he'll undoubtedly do more anyway, if he doesn't seem all that bad now. Imo he's a great villain though, his actor has a ton of screen prescence. Can't wait for the Flash discussion either, now that will be fun.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#119661: May 31st 2018 at 1:29:16 PM

'The Man' has been talked about several times, and yes, his crimes are enough, since 3 of his victims are CHILDREN. And he didn't just kill them, he kept them shackled as his 'wifes' beforehand.

And if you count 'attempted victim', make that four.

edited 31st May '18 1:30:13 PM by Forenperser

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
JoeBlitz Since: Dec, 2016
#119662: May 31st 2018 at 1:29:58 PM

Easy [tup] to Lucifer, abstaining on Pyg.

"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
MenInGreyToBlak V Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
V
#119663: May 31st 2018 at 1:34:36 PM

[up][up] I'm gonna stop here until I "nag for a candidate to be cut", but when there are villains like James Jesse who blow up entire buildings, and Zoom, who plans on destroying the entire world. Both of these surely don't mind killing children, and their acts would kill billions of children... ignoring resources, how does this compare to killing four or so children?

[down][down] I am convinced.

edited 31st May '18 1:36:43 PM by MenInGreyToBlak

Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#119664: May 31st 2018 at 1:34:45 PM

Abstain on Pyg.

I don't think the Man should go anywhere since he has jack shit for ressource and Constantine originally wasn't supposed to take place in the Arrowverse so I think he can be grandfathered.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#119665: May 31st 2018 at 1:35:43 PM

[up][up]Pedophilia. I'd say that is a unique enough niche.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#119666: May 31st 2018 at 1:36:26 PM

[up][up]Yeah we still have Ra from the stargate movie despite the following series producing some far worse villains as it was never meant to have a sequel and just stand on its own.

Also abstain on Pyg as I got no clue.

edited 31st May '18 1:38:16 PM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#119668: May 31st 2018 at 1:38:16 PM

Another charachter that got turned down earlier but I would like to bring back to the board in light of recent entries. That character being undertales Greater-Scope Villain

Chara dremurr I Bring her up because while she was earlier discussed she was dismissed for being Ambigiously Evil however recent entries like Hela Or william afton and Johan from Monster(manga) have gotten me thinking they were both put on the list even though Alternate Charachter Interpretation may give them some redeemable qualities(especially with William) however were put on because as I understand it the non-ambiguous stuff they did was still evil enough to count and there arcs are finsihed, Meaning they ended up there. With this in mind Charas actions that we KNOW she caused(killing adoptive sibling and father before blowing up the universe and then having the player sell frisk there soul to give false hope before yanking the chain at the last second) The only time they onscreen have a redeemable trait is when they say "You have a sick sense of morality" To the player should they play the genocide route twice but this is actually fairly sketchy should you think about it. Why do they say this?, Is it because we play the genocide route twice? Unlikely seeing as they play the genocide route by hijacking the ending regardless of how many times we play through the credits. Is it because they kill for power but killing for fun is to much for them? Well they had no pragmatic reason to Give the player a false sense of hope while playing Souless pacifist And don't hit me with that "She wants to teach the player a lesson" thing aside from the fact that that's another case of Alternate Charachter Intepretation. How Does that even make sense? Like they want to punish the player for killing there family,By killing there family? That's Insane Troll Logic if I've ever heard it. And if they were so disgusted why didn't they posses frisk and stop our control of them? Because chara seems to be a Card-Carrying Villain its likely to have been a compliment on her part. Now you may say its supposed to be left to interpretation and I agree however The game itself regardless of implications never gives chara any Confirmed redeemable qualities or Freudian Excuse again like Afton where the game never says if he truly loved his daughter or not and like chara is shrouded in mystery. But there "Confirmed" persoanlity traits More then meet the heinous standard. And there are no confirmed undertale sequels to be released so charas arc is long done.

Anywho on the subject of pyg...eghhh we need to debate that. A villain from another DC show I think deserves a shot it The Flashes Clifford Devoe

edited 31st May '18 1:39:07 PM by Kylotrope

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#119669: May 31st 2018 at 1:40:45 PM

Also, another thing about Diaz: Saying that he has 'zero ressources' is....not true. At all. Even BEFORE muscling into the Quadrant, his drug gang was powerful enough to secretly infiltrate the infrastructure of the entire city. Among others, Diaz had the DA, the local judge and basically the entire police force in his pocket.

edited 31st May '18 1:41:23 PM by Forenperser

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#119670: May 31st 2018 at 1:41:46 PM

There's way too much ambiguity about Chara's character and motives to call them a Complete Monster. [tdown]

Oissu!
TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#119671: May 31st 2018 at 1:45:41 PM

[up][up][up] I'm sorry but comparing Chara to Johan just doesn't work. Monster gives the viewer multiple potential excuses for Johan's behavior, but at the end of the day, he gives those excuses the middle finger, showing how the guy just doesn't need an excuse to be evil, he just is. Now, Chara, we know near-nothing about Chara, and why Chara is that way. Maybe Chara has reasons, maybe Chara is just one weird kid. But still, we don't have a solid conclusion, and with that in mind, i'll give Chara a hard [tdown]

edited 31st May '18 2:03:58 PM by TheMadCr0w

MenInGreyToBlak V Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#119673: May 31st 2018 at 1:47:49 PM

nay there.

Lemme just say the reason The Man counts? Constantine was intended to be its own thing and is a uniquely separate work, just as Hellblazer used to be technically in continuity with DC at large, but does its own thing.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#119674: May 31st 2018 at 1:49:34 PM

[tdown]chara.

[up]Is hellblazaer canon to the dcu multiverse and if so shouldnt the tree go in the main dc page.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#119675: May 31st 2018 at 1:56:03 PM

Just wanted to let everybody know that I just made the Human Traffickers trope. Seems like it'll be useful for the thread in the future, given how many human traffickers are CM's.


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