During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Gonna leave this here.
Kamen Rider Dragon Knight: General Xaviax/Kamen Rider Wrath is a narcissistic alien warlord and the one behind all the tragedies throughout the series. Originating from the planet of Karsh, Xaviax devasted his own planet with a long-lasting civil war and proceeded to enslave civilizations from other planets, starting with Ventara. Having badly injured his former ally Eubulon and vented nine of the original Ventaran riders, Xaviax saw Earth as his next target. Kidnapping humans and leaving them in coma, Xaviax manipulated a group of people into becoming riders, taking advantage of Kit's love for his father, one of his victims. Xaviax's ultimate goal was to not only make humanity his next victim, but to hunt for the Ventaran riders who had escaped from him, especially Len. Succeeding in bringing riders to his side, Xaviax orders his right-hand man to vent the agents who he considers to be a loose canon, and was indifferent to his venting at the hands of a furious Len, possessing the body of a comatose patient to use him as his new puppet. Failing to achieve his goals, Xaviax made a last attempted to manipulate the riders before his death. While seemingly caring for his planet, his superficial charm, extreme methods and proud towards his own cruelty reveal his noble intentions as the empty excuses of an unfeeling tyrant with a superiority complex and self-proclaimed evildoer.
edited 31st May '18 12:36:34 PM by TheMadCr0w
Alright, it's been two weeks and Supernatural season 13 has ended. Of the three major villains? Asmodeus comes up short on the heinous standard, leaving two potential keepers. Michael from the 'Apocalypse World' is a solid example, but the season ends with him on the run, so I'll hold off until 14 where he'll likely be dealt with. Leaving the one, the only....Lucifer.
Whos is Lucifer?
Satan, the Morningstar, the Light Bringer. Long ago, God created the world, locking away the ancient creatures in the void. And God's first creations were the Archangels. Of the four, Michael, Lucifer, Raphael and Gabriel? Lucifer was the second and their father's favorite, and loved God in turn. The Archangels helped their father war against his sister, Amara the Darkness, and sealed her away, with Lucifer bearing the Mark to imprison her...unfortunately,the Mark acted as a corruption...or did it? I'll explain more below.
Then God created human beings, mortals, along with the other angels. Lucifer was revolted by the flawed, 'weak' humans, and refused to care for them as God wanted. Michael, Lucifer's elder brother, was approached by Lucifer to help overthrow humanity, but rejected Lucifer and cast him down to earth. Stewing in rage, Lucifer decided to prove his point, and corrupted the Garden, before taking several human souls, notabaly Lilith, and twisting them into demons....with the next four being the Princes of Hell, an act of horrific sacrilege that God couldn't abide. God had Michael cast Lucifer into hell, and Lucifer's demons were imprisoned there. Lucifer dreamed of destroying humanity in retribution, and reached out to begin corrupting one of the early humans, a young man named abel. Abel's elder brother Cain saw Abel's damnation and made a deal with Lucifer to send Abel to heaven in return for Cain's damnation. Lucifer agreed...but forced Cain to kill his brother himself and transferred the Mark to him. Cain was damned and became the first of the Knights of Hell, elite demons handpicked by Lucifer while the Princes marshaled Hell's amies. Lucifer was finally locked in a cage in the blackest, deepest pits of hell itself, left to stew and wait for eons.
Finally, Azazel, one of the Princes and the only one who remained faithful, found a way to commune with Lucifer who told him of the way to break the seals....Azazel set about his work finding what Lucifer required: a 'special' sacrificial child, one with powers, to be given demon blood as a baby by Azazel. Sam Winchester was one of these children. The plan goes off as Lucifer waits and little by little, the demons break the seals on Lucifer's cage, Finally, thanks to Sam killing Lilith, the last Seal? Lucifer is freed. Sam and Dean, however, are spirited away by an unknown force while Lucifer is denied his vessel, resorting to seducing a lonely man named Nick by convincing him God had abandoned him and let his wife and child die. Lucifer proceeded to take his body. Oh, and in a world where Sam says yes to the deal? We see Lucifer has brutally exterminated humanity...and Dean? Is the destined vessel of Michael, who is to battle Lucifer at Armageddon.
Lucifer proceeds to bring horrific amounts of death and destruction, summoning the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse who infect all over the United States, bringing bloody riots, famines and diseases. For Death, an entity blindingly more powerful than Lucifer himself. Lucifer resorts to a ritual where he massacres an entire town and has the survivors possessed by his demons...oh, and the demons? They were humans once, and Lucifer secretly despises them. When humanity is gone? It's their turn next. Death is summoned and nightmarish natural disasters hit the world.
When a group of Pagan Gods meet to deal with the situation, Lucifer arrives at the meeting. "You're such petty little things. Always fighting. Always happy to sell out your own kind. No wonder you forfeited this planet to us. You are worse than humans. You're worse than demons and yet you claim to be Gods... and they call me prideful." he massacres almost all of them and faces off with his brother Gabriel, who says Lucifer, deep down, is simply lying to himself about his reluctance and his 'righteous' grievance. In the ensuing fight, Lucifer kills Gabriel. Lucifer is finally defeated when Sam tricks him into possessing him. Lucifer almost annihilates humanity, but Dean and Sam open the cage one more time. Sam manages to break free of Lucifer and holds him captive for just long enough to grab Michael, who demands the Apocalypse occur, and throws them both into the Cage.
Sam...doesn't make out well. A furious Lucifer proceeds to flay his soul, torturing him endlessly out of spite. Sam is eventually freed from the Cage, but has his memories blocked off of the torture...this doesn't go well and a hallucination of Lucifer continues mocking Sam for some time.
Cue to Season 11....when Amara, the Darkness is out in the world.? The boys are left with no choice but to free Lucifer to obtain his help. After escaping the Cage by possessing the Winchester brothers' friend Castiel, Lucifer also kills the loyal witch Rowena, knowing she's the one person who can operate said Cage. Now, Lucifer usurps control of hell back from his lieutenant Crowley, and attempts to win the angel s back to his side after killing several. When things go south against Amara? She uses Lucifer as bait to bring God in...God DOES show up to help and Lucifer fights with them to get rid of Amara. Finally, Amara tears Lucifer out of castiel, God ends up redeeming Amara and leaves creation with her. Lucifer proceeds to jump from body to body, burning out and killing his new vessels in season 12 Lucifer settles into life as a rock star, with some random murders here and there...Lucifer finally realizes how furious he truly is at God, thinking he's been abandoned again. With nothing better to do? He decides he'll create random chaos, kill tons of people and keep breaking his father's toys, because why not? he slaughters a church-full of people after taking over an archbishop, then...makes the President his new vessel. He then decides to have a child with the President's lover...who he's vicioussly abusive to, even throttling her when she refuses. Wanting his son after being cast back into hell, Lucifer manipulates his escape.
Finally, the Winchesters, with the help of their returned mother, lure Lucifer and trap him in an alternate earth after he kills Castiel, leaving him trapped there. Now, things go bad for Lucifer in that earth despite his best efforts and he's used by Alt!Michael as a battery for his angel Grace...his son is born nd ages to adulthood very soon. When Lucifer gets back, he gets very little respect and his old minions are after his head. Lucifer begins preying on other angels and killing them before taking over heaven at last. Unfortunately, Lucifer SUCKS as God, killing humans who ask him for help and losing the loyalty of the angels, nearly kills some of them before abandoning heaven in a huff.
Wanting to find his son Jack, Lucifer even resurrects Sam so he can help him. The team end up going to the Apocalypse World where Sam abandons Lucifer to Michael's graces after Michael kills the revived Gabriel. Lucifer decides to help Michael get to the real world...and leading us to the finale.
Lucifer finds Jack after killing a resistance member. Jack agrees to leave to travel the cosmos with his dad, but begs him to revive the woman, not knowing Luce killed her....Maggie is able to identify Lucifer as her killer from his glowing red eyes. Lucifer proceeds to speak with Jack who rejects Lucifer. Lucifer then decides he only needs Jack's power, cutting his throat and draining his Grace. Lucifer reveals he plans to take over the universe, annihilate all that lives and remake it as he wishes, as the new God. Mocking Sam and Jack, Lucifer says they can kill eachother, and the survivor will have seven ro ten days to try to stop Lucifer. Jack is almost forced into killing himself slowly, and tells Lucifer he's his son. Lucifer's response is to coldly remark "I'll make more."
Dean, however, makes a deal with Michael to let Michael in his body to fight and stop Lucifer after Luce betrayed Michael. In the ensuing confrontation? Lucifer is winning, preparing to smite Dean in a most painful way when Sam tosses Dean Michael's fallen Archangel blade and Dean stabs Lucifer in the heart, finally killing him once and for all as Lucifer screams in agony before dropping to the ground, a corpse surrounded by burnt wings, gone at last.
Heinousness?
Supernatural is one of the highest heinous standards on TV no question. TONS of monsters, evil bastards, cruel angels, human-eating gods...only a few have risen to this level, but Lucifer is the heinous standard. He's a fratricidal, murderous, selfish, sociopathic beast who created the demons out of tortured human souls, tries to exterminate humanity, and the demons and graduates to full on Omnicidal Maniac at the end. The most powerful being in Supernatural except for God, Death, Amara and possibly Michael, and he shows off what he can do at the end, including his betrayal of his family. With tons of torture, murder and nastiness in there. The only guy who matches him now is the genocidal, brutal Michael.
Mitigating qualities?
Okay, so...to say we have character drift is an understatement. Lucifer is the Big Bad for the first arc of Supernatural, which lasts the first 5 seasons. After that, he's gone until season 11. Now, Lucifer is under all his power and majesty, a spoiled brat throwing a tantrum, which Death explicitly states at one point. He does seem at times to love his father, his brothers, have justifiable complaints over how God treated him, how reluctant he is to do everything, how it's never his fault, it was all the Mark corrupting him...
All of it is ultimately revealed as utterly hollow. In season 5, Lucifer clearly regrets what he's doing, but after Season 11? Lucifer wasn't a victim. He was a cancer, trying to corrupt and destroy humanity, despite how he spins the story. God very reluctantly sealed him away to save the rest of creation and the Mark didn't make him evil. He was a jealous egomaniac before it, and when rid of it, he got worse and worse and worse on his own. He does claim love for his family and father, but ultimately Lucifer sees them as extensions or tools around himself. he reveals his only real care for other angels is to be admired and worshiped to feed his ego and that the only thing he truly, genuinely loves is himself.
He also seems to genuinely love his son Jack, and when Gabriel calls him out for getting himself into all his troubles, Lucifer seems genuinely shocked and even cries in seeming remorse....only in the finale? When Jack finally refuses to join Lucifer, Lucifer reveals he only needs Jack's power, steals it and ultimately embraces true monstrosity, gleefully stating that family is nothing and completely irrelevant to him. When he shows himself happy to torture Jack to death with sadistic relish, Jack begs he's Lucifer's son and Lucifer brushes it off, claiming he can have more.
Overall, Lucifer either grows out of all positive traits or simply reveals they never truly existed to begin with. He ends up a spoiled, narcissistic sociopath wanting to kill everyone and craft a perfect world where he's in charge, all because he couldn't be his father's favorite anymore, and if billions die? He couldn't care less about that. Even the other angels stop mattering to him, and Lucifer treats them horribly. He does have some seriously funny bits, and even some moments where he's on the bottom in how badly he's treated, but Lucifer keeps getting back up and shows how terrifying and evil he truly is. It's true Sam betrays him and leaves him in the Apocalypse world but this is only after Lucifer continuously and ceaselessly keeps being ridiculously evil and had tortured Sam horribly.
Conclusion?
Years ago, or even midway through this season, I'd never have said yes to Lucifer. But in the finale, I think he completely strips himself of redeeming qualities willingly and shows his true colors. At the end of the day, his excuses are nothing more than excuses he happily discards in favor of worse and worse evil.
lucifer
I was waiting for this one as lighty told me he'd be going back on the list after almost 4 years.
Holy crap that might be the record for somone being cut for having a redeeming quality that they than later lost.
edited 31st May '18 12:49:03 PM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."This the dude who danced to "Heaven Must Be Missing An Angel"? For a being like himself, you tought he would grow out of his Psychopathic Manchild tendencies, what to expect from a guy who did all this because daddy refused to give him attention.
Luci.
Lucifer. Welcome back here.
You know, I know that this isn't Shin Megami Tensei. But after SJ Redux played Satan Is Good and constantly shilled Lucifer as the ultimate humanist and "Good Chaos" (and put her as stronger than the Ultimate Mother Godess and the Shekihah) putting any Lucifer in this page...
It genuinely make me smile
edited 31st May '18 12:54:23 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
to Zoath and cut Floyd
And a BIG
To Lucifer!
I also assume that Micheal is on the Wait see list like Jeremiah from Gotham
Oh and speaking of Gotham there is one villain I like to EP to see wether or not he counts. I give you all Professor Pyg!
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
Professor Pyg AKA Lazlo Valentine serves as one of the major Arc Villains of the first half of Season 4.
Introduced as a sadistic Cop Killer Pyg grabbed the interests of Jim Gordon and the GCPD in general when Jim see one of the many cops that Pyg butchered and killed while placing a pig’s head on top of the dead cop. He does this to two more cop which angers Jim more. He then kidnaps another cop to lure Jim and Harvey to a trap and when they find said cop and remove the pig’s head, it turns out that it was attached to a grenade that was inside the cop’s stomach which causes the cop to explode and die and nearly killing Jim and Harvey.
Working with the Penguin and his mob to bring the Pyg to justice, Pyg lure the GCPD and Penguin’s men to a trap at the old courthouse activating a gatling that kills dozens or more so people. He then contacts Jim revealing himself to be the injured cop Jim rescued, telling him that this is merely the beginning, while also killing Ambulance driver.
Pyg later hatches another plan that involves killing six homeless people turn their corpses into meat pie and forces the rich acolytes of Gotham to eat them while he threatens to kill the mute child that the Penguin had befriended. As the aristocrat are eating the people pies that Pyg has cooked. Jim shows up rescues the rich people and arrests Pyg.
After being sent to Arkham Asylum, Pyg murders an inmate with a broken record for annoying Pyg before going back to listening to his music. He later gets interrogate by Jim before escaping Arkham Asylum, while also murdering several Asylum guards.
He later appears assassinating Carmine Falcone, which was later revealed to have done so on Sofia Falcone’s behest. Not only that but its also revealed that he actually an infamous hitman who copies the MO of various serial killers as his signature. Sofia then shoots Pyg after she had no use of him and forces Jim to take credit for killing Pyg which the latter of which does?
Freudian Excuse? Redeeming Qualities?
All thats known about Lazlo is that he was a hitmen/serial killer who operated in the south of America ten years prior to the series, copying multiple M.O. of other serial killer. He was eventually captured, he quickly escaped and went missing, thus, the case was dropped. Within the next decade, he went under a major facial change with titanium plates and plastic surgery, therefore concealing his identity. That’s it.
As for redeeming qualities he claim to want to end Gotham’s corrupt system, hence many of his victims were corrupt cops. However that proves to be utterly false, when his true nature comes out along with the southern accent and he really couldn’t care less about cleaning Gotham’s corruption. He’s simply a sadistic hitman/serial killer who kill just for the hell of it, and probably just took the MO of the original Professor Pyg.
Also his loyalties to Sofia just stem from the fact that he was paid a lot of money from Sofia. He doesn’t really care Sofia so long as he gets his paycheck and gets to kill a lot of people.
So none on both counts I believe.
Heinousness
Yeah I know Gotham has a really high heinous standard, which is why Theo was cut, but with the limited resources Lazlo has I think he goes all out. His body count is in the dozens in not more so, almost every victim dying in various brutal and slow fashions and has pretty much more even more people long before coming to Gotham.
While Sofia may have hired Lazlo to come to Gotham and kill Carmine, its Lazlo own choice to have a high body count subjecting his victims to die in various brutal manners and is loving every second of it.
So yeah I think he is heinous enough
Final Verdict
I’m leaving that decision to you guys!
edited 31st May '18 4:52:41 PM by G-Editor
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffSo, today is the day to discuss Arrow's Season 6....and I'm gonna save you an extended effort post, because to put it short, Season 6 is the very first season of the series without any kind of (potential) candidates whatsoever.
Both Disc-One Final Boss Cayden James, as well as Big Bad Ricardo Diaz have sizeable Freudian Excuse's, as well as clear cut redeeming qualities (even though Diaz in particular gets more and more nasty and unhinged the longer the season goes on).
As for Black Siren, she is an even clearer non-qualifier (even though I'm still annoyed about her downright Karma Houdini status).
The other, minor villains of the season don't even warrant a mention.
(And no, I'm not gonna take a shot at either Felicity or the new recruits being 'the real villains of the Season' or whatever).
edited 31st May '18 1:09:13 PM by Forenperser
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% ScandinavianHere are the drafts for Moriarty and Dracula from the Victorian Undead comic books. My apologizes for the delay.
- Vicotrian Undead: Professor James Moriarty is the man behind the titular undead. Having sustained fatal injuries after falling down the Reichenbach Falls during a confrontation with Holmes, he ordered his henchmen Colon Moran to inject him with a serum that turned him into a revenant. With his mind still intact, he returned to London and began to secretly abduct people to turn them into mindless revenant under his control. As soon as he had a sizeable army, he unleashed them into the streets of the city, killing or turning a large number of it's population. When Moran, the man who saved his life and severed him with Undying Loyalty, refused his offer to be turned into a sentient undead, he attempted to forcefully turn him into another one of his minion. Already a ruthless man with great ambition in life, his only goal now was to turn every living souls on Earth into a revenant and establish a Kingdom of them Death with himself as eternal monarch.
- Victorian Undead II: Vlad Dracula was a ruthless warlord who threw plague corpses into cities, impaled captured enemies and drank the blood of his victims. Centuries later, he remerged as a vampire and - with the help of the British agent Arthur Holmwood - attempted to take over the Empire. Growing impatient with Holmwood, who preferred a more subtle approach, Dracula decided to take matters into his own hands by starting a plague outbreak and claim the throne in the ensuing chaos. To achieve this he abducted several people, turned them into mindless thralls and planned to use them as plague carriers. When the plan failed and Holmwood call him out for his impatience, Dracula told him that he had outlived his usefulness and had one of his vampire minions feed on him. Finally being exposed and cornered by the heroes during a masquerade ball, Dracula grabbed a body-double of the Queen, whom he believed to be the real one, and ripped out her throat in front of everyone before attempting to flee.
Leaning no on Laszlo, although I'm currently gonna abstain.
Lucifer.
I don't see why Diaz doesn't deserve an effort post. Simply being bullied doesn't stop someone from counting, and while his childhood may have been downright horrible, he isn't portrayed sympathetically enough to, well, invoke enough sympathy. His "love" is subverted when he kills his so-called love.
But, the only reason I know this is because someone told me so. I haven't watched the season.
edited 31st May '18 1:12:56 PM by MenInGreyToBlak
Sorry, redeeming qualities for Diaz? What were those? He kind of subverted Even Evil Has Loved Ones by kidnapping, threatening to kill them and then killing someone very close to them in front of them. Other than that I can't think of any, genuinely. His backstory isn't sympathetic, he was bullied oh no, then he goes and burns the bully to death like 20 years later.
edited 31st May '18 1:14:48 PM by MahStache
Unsure on Pyg.
With Diaz, I didn't see him having real or lasting redeeming qualities (namely burning a picture of his father, hinting that his care for him is in the past) and felt he was one of those guys who goes above their Freudian Excuse but that's just me. But he also doesn't really go as far into heinousness as other Arrow Big Bads in so far as terror attacks or attempted genocide goes, and like Jeremiah is a cliffhanger villain, so at best he's on wait and see in my book.
edited 31st May '18 1:17:14 PM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."

43, while you're at it, Strange's writeup is also close to 300. I think Duimacher's is okay (under 150).