During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I have a candidate: The Scarlet King from the SCP Foundation lore:
Who is the Scarlet King and what does he do?
The greatest evil in SCP lore. The Scarlet King was born with the planting of the Tree of Knowledge, called Khahrahk at the time. He was the smallest of his siblings, but the only one aware, and it brought him great pain. He decided that existence itself is painful and that he'd have no part in it, so it became his goal to wipe out all of existence itself. He started by consuming his siblings and growing stronger on their essence.
In his goal to wipe out all existence, he consumed many of the gods, increasing his power in doing so, while also subjugating several of them. He took Sanaa, one of the gods he subjugated, forcibly as his wife and sired seven daughters on her. Sanaa died after birthing them, and the King took his seven daughters as his new brides, sealing them so they would not die as their mother had. From his seven bride-daughters he had seven children called Leviathans. These creatures were meant to destroy creation for him, but the Foundation managed to neutralize or destroy six of them, but the seventh—the strongest—had yet to be born. It resides in SCP-231 and is prevented from existing by using the Montauk Procedure.
Heinousness?
The Scarlet King is determined to wipe out all of existence. He devoured his own siblings along with several gods to make himself more powerful, he forced the goddess Sanaa to be his bride and mate with him, and when she died, he did the same thing with his seven daughters. He is the greatest evil in SCP lore.
Mitigating Factors?
He experienced pain and decided that he'd have no part of the pain that comes with existence. Even by the Blue-and-Orange Morality of gods, this seems like absurd Disproportionate Retribution. None of the gods he killed tried to destroy existence. If this really was just an example of higher powers having different morality than mortals, I'm sure at least one other god would have tried to destroy existence. While he did seal up his daughters after their births so they didn't die, this seems more like Pragmatic Villainy so they could be used by him to bear more offspring, given how he uses them for the leviathans.
jjjIf all that crap is On Screen, I think that he got a easy
to the Scarlet King (I love that name, is a cliche but I love it anyway)
So, on Gyokuro Shuzen's entry, she's labelled as the Big Bad. Having just finished reading the manga, this isn't the case; Alucard is the manga's ultimate antagonist, Gyokuro is merely his Unwitting Pawn. So, that pot-hole should probably be swapped with something else.
Why so serious?I am unsure on the scarlet king, it has been awhile since I read the story but most of what he is seems more implied than anything else from what I remember, I will have to think on it.
EDIT: Alright I thought about it and I am unsure, the scarlet king, like the nameless god in salt and sanctuary if he ACTUALLY thinks his existence is torture and that is why he commits the crimes he does it is hard to vote him up, having your existence be torture is a hard excuse to go around which is why the nameless god was downvoted. If it screws up his agency and he actually thinks existing is painful than I do not know. Another problem is if his existence is genuinely painful from birth than I doubt he would be able to comprehend the idea that it isn't necessarily so since his whole existence is nothing but pain. From a specific perspective it is arguable that he actually thinks he is doing other lifeforms a FAVOR by ending their existence that he is unable to understand isn't necessarily painful but he thinks existence itself is painful since all he has known since birth is pain, he agency seems SERIOUSLY screwed up by the context of what he feels his existence is considering his siblings are not actually self aware unlike him. I am unsure since it seems like he actually thinks eliminating existence is a good thing since existing for him specifically has been painful since birth so he naturally would be unable to comprehend the idea it isn't always painful since for him it has been nothing but painful.
So I am unsure since the context of his motivations is WEIRD, none of the other gods attempt to destroy existence but all of this god's siblings do not have self awareness, it is iffy, though he is definitely heinous enough I am still unsure.
edited 19th May '18 9:57:02 PM by Knack
Here's my writeup for Hidetada.
- Lord Hidetada Tokugawa is the worst member of Ieyasu’s Iga Ten. Promised to become the next shogun should he bring Ieyasu Yagyu Jubei’s head, he bombs Yagyu village, killing plenty of people—including children—ordering to leave no one alive. Making a getaway once his plans start failing, he drops more bombs onto the village, not caring when his own ninjas are killed in the explosions. Despising his son Iemitsu, he doesn’t care when he loses an eye to Jubei, instead laughing at his pain. Getting into a fight with Jubei, he has needles rain from the sky that injure Ja’ami and kill more of his own ninjas.
Scarlet King. Thinking all of existence is torturous pain sounds like a legit Freudian Excuse.
De-potholed Gyoukro:
- Rosario + Vampire: Gyokuro Shuzen is the Evil Matriarch of the Shuzen family and the leader of the genocidal anti-human organization Fairy Tale. In her position, Gyokuro tasks her men with sowing the seeds of the Human World's destruction, aiming at nothing less than humanity's annihilation by awakening the ancient vampire Alucard. Gyokuro also brainwashed her gentle, kind daughter Kahlua into being an efficient assassin that cannot refuse her orders to kill, viewing Kahlua as a proud achievement. When she confronts the heroes, Gyokuro rips off her stepdaughter Moka's Rosary Seal, and proceeds to cheerfully laugh, enjoying the pain it causes Moka. It is then revealed that Gyokuro had implanted bits of Alucard into the other Shuzen vampires, which have devoured them from the inside out and turned them into ravenous ghouls. When Moka begs on hands and knees for Gyokuro to save her beloved Tsukune from this fate, Gyokuro agrees, and then mocks Moka's weakness before punching her in the face. She even directs Kahlua to murder her beloved little sister—and Gyokuro's own daughter—Kokoa with no remorse. It's revealed Gyokuro's rage stems largely from petty jealousy at Moka's mother, her rival Akasha. When she fuses with Alucard, Gyokuro gloats that she will destroy everything Akasha ever loved and destroy the world she protected. Beautiful, sadistic and unforgiving, Gyokuro viewed all in her path as nothing more than stepping stones for her own power.
Slavers rewrite:
- "The Slavers" storyline: Romanians Tiberiu Bulat, his son Cristu Bulat, and their associate (and Cristu's lover) Vera Konstantin are the titular slavers. Tiberiu and Cristu led an Eastern European militia during The Yugoslav Wars responsible for ethnic cleansing, slaughtering several entire villages until Cristu got the idea to take young women captive. They forced them into sexual slavery and went to the United States to export the business. Tiberiu is a sadistic, trigger-happy madman who'll kill anyone at the slightest provocation, while Cristu and Vera are calculating business types who routinely have the girls raped, with Vera coming up with the strategy of "rape them to break them". These three are not above killing babies, as they send an email that shows the dead baby of an escaped victim.
New EP now...from Marvel comics.
Now, a few years ago, this guy was kind of dismissed on insufficient heinousness grounds. Having read the stuff with him, I'd like to challenge that...he's been an enemy of multiple groups, a pretty all-purpose nemesis, who has some surprisingly vile appearances. I give you...Moses Magnum.
Who is Moses Magnum?
Magnum was born in Ethiopia, where he was fascinated by weaponry and its potential. When Mussolini invaded, Magnum joined the Italians and assisted them against his own people. After the war, Magnum fled Ethipia and later formed Deterrence Research Corporation , billing it as the world's premiere developer of independent weapons research,. Thing was...Magnum was not exactly choosy about who he sold weapons to, and his development process was quite horrible.
In South America, Moses formed a death camp and had people abducted and enslaved there for the purpose of experiments. When first brought into conflict with the Punisher and Spider Man, they see video footage of men, women and children released and then pursued before blanketed in a chemical weapon that painfully melts the flesh from their bones. This is absolutely routine for Magnum, who plans to wipe out everyone in said death camp. Spider Man and the Punisher infiltrate it, saving everyone and facing off with Magnum, who is apparently killed by his own gas.
Only to survive, thanks to keeping a secret anti-gas bodysuit beneath his clothes and escaping. Later using the name 'Magnum Force,' Magnum establishes a mining company on Katsuyu Shima, using a new drill to burrow into the earth's core to harvest energy, abducting a scientist for this purpose. Thing is here...well...there are gonna be side effects. Namely ripping open every fault line on the freaking planet and causing an apocalyptic level of death and destruction. Luke Cage has been sent after Magnum to rescue a captive scientist by her grandmother...whose son was one of the ones killed in Magnum's death camps. Luke even breaks his usual vow of Thou Shalt Not Kill, promising to deal with Magnum by any means necessary. In the ensuing fight, the drill is destroyed and Magnum sent plummeting into the core of the earth...
Only to be rescued by Apocalypse, who decides he likes Magnum's potential for crafting his Social Darwinist theories. Magnum agrees to serve Apocalypse and receives seismic powers in turn, which he calls his Magnum Force. Later resurfacing, given additional tech by They Who Wield Power, Moses soudns out an ultimatum: give him rulership of Japan or he'll kill everyone on the island and destroys an entire port city to prove he isn't bluffing. the X-men infiltrate his base to stop him, and when he realizes he's being opposed Magnum declares that he warned the world if he was opposed in any way, he would destroy Japan. "And by Hades, destroy it I shall!" the X-men stop him and Magnum's base seemingly blows up with him on it...
Only to survive again and later lead a brutal coup to take over the African nation of Canaan to give himself immunity for his crimes. Subsequently, he still runs his weapons company and wipes out a huge building of rival weapon developers at AIM when they launch competing bids against his own, and then tries to assassinate t'Challa of Wakanda throw Wakanda into chaos. After losing again, Apocalypse gets annoyed and strips him of power, condemning him to trigger seismic quakes if he steps on solid ground. Magnum, using a floating base and desperate to win his master's favor back, attempts to steal a seismic cannon to fcous his power, bringing the Avengers against him. With his powers stabilized and enhanced, Magnum decides to...wipe out the entire Eastern US seaboard, only being stopped by the Scarlet Witch's near death and a furious Wonder Man almost murdering Magnum in response....ending with Magnum falling again to an apparent death in a chasm. Magnum has made appearances since, but nothing of note.
So, heinous standard?
Now...honestly? I think he makes it. Even before he gained any powers, as a two-bit arms dealer, Magnum killed dozens, if not hundreds, of men, women and kids with a horrific chemical weapon that literally melted them alive. After this, he nearly triggered the apocalypse. After gaining powers, he basically tries to commit genocide on the Japanese just for not being their master, wipes out an innocent city to show he's not bluffing, and tries to wipe out the US eastern seaboard, which is impressive given his limited amount of appearances and level ofpower.
So, yeah, I have to say I think Magnum clears the standard pretty nicely.
Mitigating Qualities?
No. Magnum has an air of faux-genteelness (that erodes throughout his appearances), but no true moralityor redeeming qualities and zero sympathetic backstory to him. He has no respect for his men, even throwing one out of a plane to get rid of Luke Cage even though the man has been loyal to him. He was crazy evil before Apocalypse got a hold of him and even after, he's not changed whatsoever. In fact, the Avengers even point out that after Apocalypse cursed him, they could've helped him if he just came to them, but Magnum is so twisted that it just never occurred to him to try a Plan A that wasn't "murder hundreds of millions of people".
Conclusion?
I'd call Moses Magnum an easy keeper.
Moses Magnum
I love some Social Darwinist
In what stories he appear? He sounds like a seriously interesting villain to read
Watch me destroying my countryHas anyone from Orange Is the New Black already been discussed? The show might be a dramedy, but two certain Knight of Cerebus stand out from other characters.

Hidetada and Ieyasu.
"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."